Another NPC Question

counselor · 06-23-2008, 02:45 AM

Hi, I've been reading things that cysters have had to say for years. Your knowledge has helped me enormously. I've never posted, because I'm technologically illiterate, and wasn't sure how. However, I think I've figured it out- kind of. I recently started NPC, after some research, including what many of you thought about it. I think I've read all of the threads on this, and haven't seen any experience, similiar to mine.

I did a shut down. I gained ten pounds in three weeks. On top of that, I experienced incredible stress. I would wake up in the morning, in a state of stress. It has been terrible. I have literally avoided going out in public because I have been afraid, I would snap at someone. Although, I have been diagnosed with PCOS, and have most symptoms, I have always had a regular period(never late or early, but extremely heavy). When doing progesterone, AF came ten days early, for the first time in my life. And has been heavier than I have ever had. Again, too heavy for me to leave the house for two days. I take iron glycinate during AF to keep me from becoming anemic. This has always worked, but not this time. Today, I was extremely weak, and crunched on ice.

About four years ago, I started a regime, with your tips, that regulated my blood sugar, controled my weight(for the first time in my life), and helped with acne. I still carry about 10 pounds, have a little trouble getting deep sleep, a little extra hair, and occassional mild depression. But overall, for the past four years, I have had incredible control over PCOS, compared to the previous years. I hoped that NPC would give me that little extra balance to help me reach an optimum state of health. My experience has been unusual, to say the least. It has helped with energy, and sleep. But, it seems to be unraveling everything else. I can't find anyone who has had my experience. I think I've read all threads here on the subject. And haven't seen any experiences like mine. I am just worried that whatever is going on may be hurting my body, and undoing all the progress I've made, in the past four years. I would so appreciate any advice, or knowledge, you may have on my experience. AF will end in two days, and I am scheduled to start NPC again. But, I just don't know if I should, or not. Any guidance would be welcome and appreciated.

Thank you for sticking with my lengthy post. Obviously, I had a problem cutting to the chase. Oh, I'm 45 if that is important. Thank you for the knowledge you have shared over the years. It absolutely allowed me to raise the quality of my health, and consequntly my life. I am deeply greatful to you all.

journey18 · 06-23-2008, 06:49 AM

Well done for learning to manage PCOS in a way that works for you.
I'd say if the NPC is helping you to relax, then it should be fine.

Although saying that I have not taken NPC yet so I'm not sure how it will affect different people, however if you say that it's helping your energy levels and sleep and bringing on AF then especially if this is your first early AF then maybe see if it does the same again the next time you take npc, so I'd suggest to maybe try it once more and see if you're happy with it, the early af may have just been your body responding to the NPC as in "yes! i'm here!" kinda thing, so maybe now its done that it will calm down the next time.
But if it is helping with energy and sleep then this may be having a ripple effect and if it is will inevitably help calm your stress levels.

I'd say try it once again and see how it goes.

Good luck! xx

NYER · 06-23-2008, 12:05 PM

I have to say that when you do a shutdown, anything goes. It's not exactly a 'fun' experience. When you are progesterone defiicient, your estrogen goes unopposed. Your estrogen receptors get 'lazy'. When you introduce progesterone, you will often get a resurgence of estrogen, as it wakes up those receptors. So having anxiety symptoms, headaches & other symptoms are common. I never thought of it before, but I suppose milk thistle might help during a shutdown to get rid of any excess estrogen & reduce symptoms. Eating very healthily during a shutdown would help too.

With all that said, I think if you are having regular cycles, with nothing out of the norm except heavy AF, then a shutdown might not be right for you. Just using NPC after ovulation is probably sufficient.

As for heavy AF, I have used false unicorn in the past with good success. BUt when I changed my diet to include lots of fruits & veggies + supplemental magnesium, the heaviness went away without the need for FU. Low iron can actually be a cause of heavy AF too.

HTH!

counselor · 06-23-2008, 01:58 PM

Thank you for your responses. I do have regular AF, but I don't think I ovulate, and never have. I have large fibroids and assume that is the reason for heavy periods. I was advised that NPC could help with the fibroids. Do you think it can? Also, should I do a shut down if trying to induce ovulation. I know a shut down prevents it. But will it help with ovulaion after shut down? Also will a blood test show whether, or not I need NPC, and how much?
Thank you in advance for any words of wisdom you may share.

NYER · 06-23-2008, 02:26 PM

Yes, a shutdown can help. But it may feel worse before things get better. I would take milk thistle along with it during the shutdown. And look into metabolic enzymes such as nattokinase, wobenzym-n and others to help break down fibroids (and keep in mind to stop if/when you decide to try to conceive). They really do work and have been known to help with fibroids. I've used nattokinase & it broke down a very old c/s scar as well as other scar tissue.

Best of luck!

counselor · 06-23-2008, 07:52 PM

I am so greatful for your response. I am taking milk thistle, 250mg containing 200mg(80%) standardized silymarin. Do you think that is enough? Thank you for the nattokinase suggestion. I think that is probably a great idea. I took it a few years ago, but I can't remember why. Currently, I am working on so much, I worry about adding even one more thing. Pau d'arco and enzyme for yeast, thyroid, adrenals, lymph system, progesterone (for anything I may have missed )etc. Do you think it would be ok to throw nattikonase on top of it all? I don't remember any contraindications. Do you know of any?

Thank you for your thoughts. They are invaluable to me. I am currently seeing a Master Herbalist. I think she is pretty good. She does muscle testing. I am now a true believer in this, when it is done correctly. She just seems to be a little bit unbending, sometimes. Over the past 4 years, I've seen a few natural health people: naturapath, accupuncturist, integrative medicine Dr., and now the Herbalist. I have great respect fo all. And they have all helped in one area or another. But, I have a really difficult system to deal with. My herbalist didn' acknowledge the degree of my discomfort, and could not seem to explain it, so that I could understand. I was more than a little disturbed with my side effects of NPC. Espescially, since they seemed to be counter what I thought I understood NPC to be doing. Your comments have helped me tremendously. I am much calmer about all the yuck stuff(weight gain, heavy AF, physical and mental stress, etc.) now. I will try NPC for another month. I went by to see my herbalist about an hour ago. When I started the consult with your comments, it seemed to help her be more articulate, and forthcoming with some info. I needed. Maybe she just hadn't understood that I needed more info on precisely how progesterone worked with estrogen, and why it would produce different effects. Many times, I think some people think I know more than I do. Which I guess stops them from going into detail. But, I know very little about NPC. Is there a good book, you know of, that may be helpful?

Again, I so appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. I am fortunate, indeed to have found you, along with the other wonderful women on this board.

NYER · 06-23-2008, 10:05 PM

I think any amount of milk thistle is fine. I guess it depends on your response if you need to up it a bit. When I was doing a food detox (and I'm like you - I always get the worst of s/e's) I took 1 capsule 3x day, and it helped with my symptoms enormously. It shouldn't cause any conflicts with any other supplements. But again, not something I'd take at high dose long term (not that it's dangerous - just don't want to have a long term effect of lowering estrogen especially when you are sensitive to natural treatments).

You could also focus on one body system at a time - i.e. the adrenals first, once you've built up that, then work on maintenance dosages, and on to the next system. Sometimes your body can't take so much detoxing at once, such as lymph, and getting hormones balanced, etc. Eating healthy will get up your alkaline reserves (minerals) and allow you to tolerate detoxing better too. This has definately been my own experience, as even enzymes put me over the edge alone.

I've never heard of Pau d'arco - are you taking that for yeast? Is it possible you can switch to something like acidophillus? I looked it up & it does have a blood thinning effect as all enzymes do as well. What kind of enzymes do you take? I'm not sure of the effect of digestive enzymes on fibroids, but they may help as well. I'm sure your herbalist also can tell you what may be contraindicated.

As for books - Dr. Lee's "What your doctor may not tell you about perimenopause" is a good book regardless of what chapter you are in with regard to pre/post menopause. Gives all the info about natural progesterone cream.

counselor · 06-24-2008, 04:59 PM

Hi Nyer, again, thank you for the great onfo. I have had a real battle with yeast, since my extended use of birth control pills, which lead to repeated use of antibiotics over several years. From about 30 to 37 years old, I let the traditional medical field dictate my PCOS treatment(like many others, I knew no better). By 37 PCOS was just one of many ,many problems. At 40, I started trying to reverse the damage. I had a dear and knowledgeable friend, this board, and other resources to help me educate myself. And I have made some real progress. But, this has been hard. You are absolutely right. I need to back off a little and do one thing at a time. But, you know, this past month has been so terrible, I hate to loose the ground, I may have gained.

I am doing acidophilus while doing Pau D'arco. I am also doing protease on an empty stomach. I do all of this to combat yeast. I generally do a cleanse about once every 6 months. But with the npc, I am having to work on it continuously. I switch supplements for this every 2 weeks.

Thank you for telling me about Dr. Lee's book. I am going to get it right now. I'm going to try to stay on my regime the rest of this week. But if things don't get a little better, I will wind up taking your excellent advice, and try working on one system at a time.
Sincerly,
Shannon

counselor · 06-24-2008, 05:05 PM

Oh Nyer, I forgot , I do take a product called Bio-Gest. It has Betaine Hydrochloride, Glutamic Acid Hydrochloride, Ox Bile concentrate,Pure Pancreatin, and pure Pepsin I really like this, it has been great for my digestion.

NYER · 06-24-2008, 09:39 PM

Shannon,

I'm definately not an expert on enzymes, but I thought I had heard that when taking enzymes, there will be die-off symptoms, including yeast. I'm not totally sure about that. Digestive enzymes can work like metabolic - mop up waste in blood & dead tissue - when taken on an empty stomach. Which may just be creating a ping-pong effect with the yeast. Just something for you to investigate.

So the NPC has caused aggravation of the yeast? There is a yeast-estrogen connection. It sounds like you've got a resurgence of estrogen, but that will probably calm down once you are done with your shutdown and continue NPC in the last part of cycle.

There is a great website forum - though some of the members are a little militant about Dr. Stolls methods (you'll always get the advice of the "three legged stool" - skilled relaxation/whole food diet/exercise - which to me isn't 'the' solution to everything!) - it's: http://www.askwaltstollmd.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html

Candida is a big theme on the board, and I'm sure Dr. Stoll or other members will be able to guide you on dealing with yeast or you can search the archives if you're interested.

Wishing you the best!!

counselor · 06-30-2008, 05:12 AM

Hi Nyer,
Wow! The resources you gave me have been great! I'm reading Dr. Lee's book, and feeling much less anxious about things. As far as mood swings, I'm still having them. But they aren't every day, any more. I actually had a great day today. I would say, I felt absolutely serene. Which was quite a relief, because I was worried, I'd never have that feeling again. I think, I'm probably still in for some bad days, but just to have a break was refreshing.

I think, I forgot to mention earlier, that I generally take probiotics, including acidophilus everyday. But with the npc I needed to go in with a stronger method. I don't think, I'm getting a ping-pong effect from doing it all(probiotics, herbs, and enzymes), I just think it may be pointless to do probiotics, while doing the herbs and enzyme. They may just immediately kill the good bacteria. I have seen conflicting information on this. So, I just take them, in case they help. I'm really happy, I think, I have made some real progress with my yeast. I generally have allergic reactions to many things. The severity, and frequency of these reactions advance with yeast growth, and recede with control. I am having fewer reactions than I've had in years.

I'm about to go to bed. I can't wait to read more of Dr. Lee's book. Oh, I was reading about hyponidd, and saw you had discontinued use. I was thinking about starting that after my shutdown. Did it not work for you? I saw you had stopped, but I didn't see why. I don't think I'm too worried about the liver thing, are you? I was much more concerned about heavy metal toxicity, until I read the thread, where you and some others, made me feel more secure about it. Also, I can't remember if I told you, but I'm deffinitely starting Natikonase(sp.?) after my shutdown. Thank you for reminding me of that. I would not have remembered that without your prompt.
thanks,
Shannon

NYER · 07-03-2008, 11:00 AM

Hi shannon,

Great to hear that things are going better for you!

Hyponidd was working well for me, but then I became hypoglycemic and had to stop it after taking it for 2 mos. It took me about a month to get my blood sugar back up. I don't know why, but it could have been overactive insulin, or I've noticed when I take things that thin my blood too much that I have opposite extremes with my blood sugar. No, I don't think the liver thing with hyponidd is a concern. Also with the nattokinase, I'd wait till AF is over to take it. Sometimes it can cause flooding if taking too many blood thinning substances during AF (especially with the nattok & the enzymes & then doing a shutdown which may make you bleed more heavily after).

Let me know how you do & good luck!

Franca · 07-03-2008, 12:14 PM

Counselor- I had many of the problems you have now, and took a zillion things while trying to rebalance my system. Can you go here: http://www.soulcysters.net/profile.php?do=editsignature and list all the things that you're taking now? It's hard to comment on what may be working and not working with so many things to take into account.

In the meantime, here's the short version of my story:

In about 1997 I started having a hormonal imbalance and yeast problems. Over the course of a year, I figured out the best thing to do to zap the yeast/bacteria (which was causing everything from bleeding gums to vaginal discharge, dry eyes, itchy ears, etc), was to 1) take oral antifungals, like Diflucan, 2) do a colon clense [with oral capsules], 3) change to a low-carb diet, 4) exercise to keep my systems in better shape.

After that, I thought all was well. But then in 2005 I found out I had fibroids. I had them removed in January. In your case, your fibroids are likely the cause of the heavy periods, and will likely be feeding your hormone imbalance symptoms as well. Fibroids actually create their own hormonal feedback loop, growing with progesterone and forcing your body to try to make more estrogen to balance it all out (hence the moods, acne, etc.).

Be careful of all the hormonal supplements you are currently taking, as they may just be adding to the problem. For example, I discovered by accident that milk thistle not only helps clear excess estrogen from your system, it also is anti-estrogenic, so when you take it, it plugs up some estrogen receptors that your body's own estrogen would normally take up. I mistakenly took it CD1-CD18 and gave myself a 39 day cycle two months ago!

Anyhow, this is why I'd like to see a total list of what you're doing. You might also want to talk to an experienced gyn about your fibroid situation and whether you can have them removed. You can find other fibroid ladies here: http://blog.geekwithfibroids.com/200...#comment-38915

Hope this helps!

NYER · 07-03-2008, 01:01 PM

Franca:

Where did you get the info that progesterone causes fibroids? It's quite the opposite:

What are the causes of fibroids?

One striking fact is the role of estrogen, whose basic function throughout the body is to stimulate cell growth. Clearly estrogen stimulates fibroid growth and progesterone inhibits it. That makes estrogen–progesterone imbalance (estrogen dominance — a very common condition among perimenopausal women) a likely contributor to fibroid growth.
We doubt that estrogen alone creates fibroids, but the xenoestrogens in our environment (chiefly pesticides and growth hormones used in food production) could go a long way toward explaining why fibroids are so much more common today than a few decades ago.

Another striking fact is the pattern of fibroids in families. We often see astoundingly similar experiences among mothers, daughters and sisters. This does not necessarily mean that there is a genetic factor, because families often share other factors. But we speculate that some women may have more estrogen receptors in their uterine tissue, thus making them more susceptible to the effects of estrogen dominance.

http://www.womentowomen.com/hysterec.../fibroids.aspx

Natural Progesterone during initial use does wake up estrogen receptors, therefore causing a temporary increase in symptoms until the two hormones balance out.

Franca · 07-03-2008, 02:45 PM

Hi NYER~

The relationship of hormones and fibroids is still being investigated. Here is a quote from another website that talks about progesterone http://www.fwhc.org/health/fibroids-help.htm:

The use of progesterone to treat women with uterine fibroids is hotly debated. One side holds that fibroids are created by lack of progesterone. The other side makes, to my mind, the better case: that progesterone increases fibroids. Evidence? Fibroids increase in size during pregnancy, when progesterone production is high, and atrophy after menopause, when progesterone levels decrease.

______________________

I believe what we'll find with more research is that fibroids create their own hormonal feedback loop which interferes with what should be happening if they didn't exist. Before my myomectomy, I had normal progesterone levels, but if anything, slightly low estrogen levels. Right after the surgery, I had heaps of estrogen in my system, which I believe was produced by my ovaries to serve my fibroids that weren't there anymore, so it didn't have anywhere to go. It has since died down to a new normal level. Next cycle, I'll be doing injectible fertility meds, so will have all my levels checked again, but of course, they'll all be influenced by the meds.

Anyhow, what this all comes back to, is that I suspect that Counselor should be putting less hormonal remedies into her body right now, not more, but I'd still like to know everything she's taking. I know that when I first had problems (with the yeast/bacteria back in 1997), I took a million and one things, and eventually had to stop everything, clean house so to speak, and then stick to a simple diet plan for a long time.