Catholic Cysters Corner - Page 51

juststartn · 12-01-2006, 11:32 AM

Let's see. We're to sit back and pray (and for what, I might add?)... and not say, "I'm sorry, but that is WRONG"? Tell someone that the actions they are taking are directly against SPECIFIC Church teaching? It is NEITHER kind NOR loving to sit back and say nothing except "we'll support your decisions, as long as they work for you/it works for you and your spouse/family".

How about "That's wrong, but I will pray that God's will will be done"? Or "Maybe you need to go speak to a knowledgable priest about this, because this is against clear and direct Church teaching"? Are those harsh and judgemental? Is it mean-spirited to say "You need to rethink this, because you have placed yourself outside of God's sanctifying grace by this action"?

We will ALL be called to account for the times another was sinning (and YES this IS a sin. Am I saying I don't sin? NO. Have I committed this particular one? No, but even if I had, it doesn't disqualify me from saying it IS a sin), and we said and did nothing to instruct them, to try and dissuade them from their plans, or to explain Church teaching to them. That is not something that is up for debate. It isn't optional. If we know better, and do not at least attempt to instruct, dissuade, challenge them, then we are accountable for their sin too. And just because something has already happened, does not mean we are called to be supportive of it, either.

It is not harsh or judgemental to say "It is a sin, this thing that you do". I don't have to be perfect to know sin when I have it thrust in my face so blatantly. I have never said I was perfect, without sin, or without need of correction myself from time to time. However, being called judgemental for explaining Church teaching, harsh because I suggested confession, because what is being done IS a mortal sin, is ridiculous. Was I harsh when I said I would pray that she and her DH have a whole houseful of children, conceived the way that God has deemed moral? Was I judgemental when I said I prayed that all would work itself out in God's time? Doesn't sound judgemental to me.

Should I be supportive of someone purposefully committing any other kind of sin? Can someone answer me THAT? If I came on here and said I was cheating on my DH because I wasn't in love with him, and hadn't been for a long time, and was miserable and suffering....would you support THAT? Why is it, just because something concerns reproduction we seem to think we cannot say "Sorry, that's wrong"?

Situations of this sort are PRIME for using to offer our sufferings up. We don't have to sit back and let it be for no purpose. Offer it up! Unite our mourning, our losses, our pain, to Christ's! Pray that it will do some of the Holy Souls some good! Keep someone from committing a mortal sin, and separating themselves from God! How much more good could we do in this world, if we stopped focusing on "what I want, at all costs"...and started thinking more about "how can I use this for GOOD?" How can I make lemonade out of these (apparent) lemons I have been handed? God and the Church give us a way of doing that. Is it EASY?!? Heck no! I'm far from saying I don't have a pity party or two (or a dozen!) when I get down, sometimes. But all of our emotional suffering...all of our grief and mourning...all of it...can be used for so much more than we seem to think....just because we want something, doesn't mean it is in God's plan for us. Doesn't mean it is the best thing for us, or for the kingdom of God.

I don't know where this whole "whatever you want to do is ok, even if it is against Church teaching, as long as it works for you and your family" idea comes from. I don't know why it is that explaining how grievous this affront is to God is harsh. What are we supposed to do? Coddle sin and hope that those committing it "come around" on their own? Do we think God is going to look at us on the Day of Judgement and say "Well, you were really upset for a while, so I'll make that sin a venial sin rather than a mortal"? Do you REALLY think that? Do you really think that we should make NO attempt to say anything to dissuade someone from a path that has already led them into mortal sin? For which they seem completely unrepentent? To try and get them to turn around, repent, and change their ways? Reunite themselves with God in a state of grace?

You know, I thought I left that whole "let your conscience be your guide" garbage behind when I converted. The Church gives us teaching for a reason. It is very clear on this matter. And all of the feelings in the world....All of the emotional pain in the world, does not change that fact.

Maybe THIS came across harsh and judgemental, too. Well, I'm sorry if some of you out there are more interested in being nice and "loving" than being truthful and insisting on explaining Church teaching. Sometimes, being loving IS being "harsh". Sometimes, the truth stings. Sometimes, like cleaning out a wound, it hurts. But the fact of the matter is, no one choosing sin is going to LIKE hearing "What you are doing is wrong". Of COURSE it is going to come across harsh and judgemental because we don't choose to support their particular choices. But sometimes, folks, we are called to be the soap in the wounds of the world. But just because something hurts us emotionally, doesn't mean it is wrong or bad for us. The wounds caused by sin NEED to be cleaned out before they can heal. Sometimes, we have to say, "NO, it is WRONG...and here is why." Sometimes the help most needed is the kind that hurts.

Do you all think I get some sick sense of pleasure out of telling someone they have commited a mortal sin? Nooooo, sorry to disappoint you. I've been praying for sometime that Kerr would NOT do this. Even before she came back on here and told us she had. If she does conceive, I will obviously pray for a healthy nine months for her and the wee one, and that all will be well. However, praying for a healthy pregnancy and baby doesn't mean that she doesn't need to go to Confession about this. Choosing, willfully, to commit a mortal sin has placed her outside of the state of grace. Not my words--the Church's.

Of course, I encourage everyone to go to Confession. Frequently..whether there is a mortal sin to deal with or not. Shoot, I need to go this weekend again myself (no mortal sins I am aware of, but a lot of venials, unfortunately)..and I was just in there last weekend. Like I have said repeatedly, I am NOT perfect. But one doesn't have to be perfect in order to say something is wrong. Cause if that was the case, then we better not obey those priests and bishops...the cardinals...the popes....nope, gotta make sure not to listen to them, cause they're sinners too...(sarcasm, folks). I'm not quoting myself when I say something is a mortal sin. I'm not making it up out of thin air, based on my own personal whims at any given moment.

It is the kind and loving thing to correct those in sin. It is kind and loving to point to the remedy for that sin. It is kind and loving to say "I will pray you stop this". It is the exact opposite to say nothing about the sinfulness of something, and fail to point the way back to the narrow road....

If telling the truth about what the Church teaches is a sin, is "harsh"...is "judgemental"...then I am guilty. Quite clearly. If telling someone something is a mortal sin, is a sin in and of itself...then I am guilty. If pointing the way back to Christ and His Bride, the Church, is a sin, then I am guilty. But I would rather risk sinning by being so "mean" as to point out sin when I see it, and inform those sinning of the remedy, than to say nothing, and carry their sins on my soul.

Cause that is precisely what we do, when we say and do nothing. We take their sins as our own, because of our own inaction...

And I have enough sins of my own to account for. I don't need anyone else's.

I do hope that ya'll understand that I am NOT enjoying this. But not all of the things we are called to do ARE enjoyable (goodness knows, changing a 2 yr olds diapers is not enjoyable...but as a mom, it's part of the job)...but part of the job of being a faithful Catholic is sometimes going to rub others the wrong way. Do I like knowing people out there are upset at me? No, of course not. But I would rather have people upset with me, than God. I'm not here on the earth to win a popularity contest. There's only one vote that matters...and I will do whatever necessary--even if it royally ticks some people off--to get HIS 'vote'.

May God, in His infinite wisdom and justice, have mercy on us all.

Rachel

CelticSpirit · 12-01-2006, 11:55 AM

Rachel,

I totally understand EVERYTHING you're saying and I do mean EVERYTHING. I agree with what you're saying about sin and church teachings. I don't agree with the steps that some people take, but it's not up to me to make decisions for other people.

Kerr knows the teaching. We clarified that. However, SHE has to make the decision to follow it. Not us. No matter how much we badger, attack, lecture, whatver, Kerr is the one who ultimately must make the right decision. She must examine her conscience and her lifestyle to make the changes needed. She might not be in a place (mentally, emotionally, whatever) to do that. We need to pray for her soul, and for her to come to the conclusion that the church is right.

Second, with all the hullaballoo that we are all causing here, are we really going to win this argument or are we going to drive this woman from her faith, which she so desperately needs right now. She needs to find it in herself to make the right decisions, but the more we push, prod and plead, are we really helping. We need to win the person, not the argument (good gravy--I know that I saw that from a priest somewhere about apologetics and I can't remember where!) Right now, we have a person in our midst that we need to win. And, I can't help but think of that stupid cliche, you get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Like I said, I totally agree with you here, but I don't want to scare someone away from the church over this. I'd rather give her the time it takes to get through this. I had fallen away for quite awhile and I know that I wouldn't want someone to hold that against me since I did eventually come to see the truth. I can't help but think that Kerr is in the same position.

juststartn · 12-01-2006, 12:33 PM

I understand your point, completely, Stacie. However, I've made it quite clear that I DO pray for Kerr. In many many ways, actually. About like I pray for the rest of you, actually.

And while I understand about the whole "badgering" thing, I don't think that three posts on a message board constitutes badgering. I don't know Kerr from Adam on the street. And if I met her, all I would say was that I was praying for her. I am not pming her, or emailing her, and snail mailing her brouchures on the wonders of Hell (trying to be funny there--doubt it came across properly).

I just want it to be made perfectly clear that we all have an obligation to clarify Church teaching. If Kerr really is aware of Church teaching on the matter, and has chosen otherwise, that is on her, once *I* have made sure she is aware of it.

My last post wasn't even really directed at Kerr. Frankly, it was more at the whole "it is harsh and judgemental to attempt to make absolutely certain that someone understands Church teaching, and the ramifications of going against it".

So really, only two posts about the IVF issue. My last one has more to do with the very common attitude that we ought to sit back and say nothing when someone sins. I am not trying to be some know-it-all...a kill-joy....a mean old hag who simply wants to impose myself on others. However, I believe we have an obligation to our sisters who have left the path, to try and get them back. That is as big an act of love and charity as I can think of.

But I'll drop this now--a friend is coming over to do her laundry--a mouse died in her laundry room wall and her DH is gone for another two weeks....and she's 6 mos pregnant with #5, and has laundry for all 5 of them (herself and the dc) to do. Got to make sure mine is done and out of the way first. LOL

Rachel

tigir · 12-01-2006, 02:20 PM

All I can say is WOW!

Rachel ~ Your long post did me some good. Thank you for it.

I think something we all should remember is that we cannot hear each other when we post here. It is easy to assume a post was meant one way or another, but sometimes it doesn't always come across the way it was intended. I have had this happen to my posts before - even me going back and reading my own.

For myself I come here for the support of other Catholic women who are dealing with the same issues I come up against myself...excess weight, hair, etc. Infertility is something most of us have had to deal with at some point. I cannot under any circumstances support IVF. I can, however, support my fellow Catholic Cyster with prayer which I have chosen to do. It is true we are all called to instruct the ignorant, or to correct to wrong - I believe that has been done. I am sorry it all came down to what it did. I will be praying for everyone here. God bless you all.

musicteacherfla · 12-02-2006, 03:48 AM

Okay, this board needs some cheering up! So let me be among the first to say:

Happy Advent!!!

O, Come, O Come, Emmanuel! And ransom captive Israel!

God Bless,
Carrie

kerr · 12-02-2006, 10:16 AM

Just so you all know, I do go to confession every week and the priest is well aware of my reproductive choices. I am sorry to have caused such an uproar. The preist said IVF is already done and you cannot undo it. He told me to focus my activities on the church like I always have and pray the rosary daily and if I decide to do it again, I should come to confession daily.

I was never asking for acceptance for doing IVF. I was trying to simply state instead of putting your energy into putting up links and making comments (or whatever you want to call them) I was saying you should say a prayer for me in general. As a catholic woman very involved in the church my whole life, that is what I was always taught to do is to pray that someone finds there way again back to their faith. So for those of you who have prayed for me and my family, I thank you I actually felt your prayers this time.

To set the record straight all the comments or whatever I recieved where only here on the message thread.

I have to get to baking for the bake sale at church tommorow, the money raised goes to the youth group for their annual trip to Steubenville. Good luck to everyone!

StephanieV · 12-02-2006, 12:54 PM

As Carrie has gleefully declared -

HAPPY ADVENT!

Thank you Carrie for announcing our wonderful season has begun. Why don't we all put everything behind us and concentrate on this beautiful time rather than the other issues that have been the main focus. I love advent, the waiting for our savior to be born, the four candles representing hope, peace, love and joy. Maybe we can talk about what each candle means to all us each week in our own lives. Does that all sound good for everyone?
The first candle is HOPE.

stephanie

dachshundqueen · 12-02-2006, 03:32 PM

When do I light the candles on my wreath, I always get so confused.

Kerr, FWIW, the links were for ME as I had specifically requested them after I went to confession and discussed MY personal marital relations life with the priest and he recommended to me that I should read the humane vitae (sp. as always) after we discussed some BCP suggestions that my OB had made. The IVF question and the Humane vitae question weren't actually related - if that makes sense.

Rachel - My pathetic charting........I started a little pink CM at the cervix 2 days ago and now it's more red, so I'm thinking AF is on the way as my temps are also dropping. Joy. Nursing caused me some cramps today, owie. Thanks for the NFP advice.

General - does anyone use cloth mama pads? I have purchased some and I'm interested to see if anyone does. Also, we've decided to not do gifts this year. For the baby we're only doing 3 gifts this year, each other, none. Otherwise, we've spent a lot of time trying to convince family members (BIL, SIL, my bro & SIL) that we should quit exchanging gifts. That has been a big hit. Does anyone else do this? Trying to get away from consumerism and focus on Jesus and real Christmas and save money too I guess.

Liz

musicteacherfla · 12-02-2006, 04:08 PM

Thanks, Stephanie--what a great idea!

The first candle--hope--to me, it means that God is the God of Hope, and that if we just hope in Him, He will bless us with our desires--if it His will. This year, I hope that by next year, I will be cradling a little baby in my arms! I also hope that my DH & I will be financially free, and be able to move into our first house!

What about everyone else? What does hope mean to you?

Carrie

kerr · 12-03-2006, 12:05 AM

Hope to me means to end suffering. Hope is something I never give up on. If you have hope you have life and a future to look to.

My family we still exchange gifts, we have set price limits though. Mostly gift cards to our favorite places we would never treat ourselves to. My neices and nephew always get gifts from everyone. Usually one toy and clothes for the rest of the gifts.

I just sent a bunch of fleece tie (sp) pillows to the hospice where MIL passed. I usually send some fleece tie blankets and tie pillows a few times a year. When I was at the hospice with my MIL now almost a year ago, I saw the patients really enjoyed them and made there last days more comfortable. They are soft and easy to help position yourself with in bed. I usually send a variety of male and female type patterns. I love to send the pretty girly flower patterns. When the fleece goes on sale, I usually stock up for the next batch.

CelticSpirit · 12-03-2006, 02:31 PM

Hope...wow, I can't even begin to describe hope.

I had such a horrible childhood and life until I met my DH. I just keep plugging along praying that one day, things would be better. When I met DH, it was like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. Interesting because I never planned to marry or have children. I'm guessing it was the hope for the future (as well as my faith in God) that kept me going.

Now, my hope is more related to other people. I hope that the sick get well. That people whom I love have good times. That sort of thing. But for myself, I don't hope for anything except for my kids to have happy healthy lives. I guess I just look at life and say, if I were to die tomorrow, I was soooo very blessed that I can't ask for anything more.

I hope that I'm making sense...

Kara--how's work going? I've been praying for you, sweetie! I pray that things get better or that you can find a different job that fits you better. :pray:

I also wanted to say...I'm reading the book Triumph. W-O-W!!!! I'm not even in the middle of the book and it's absolutely AWESOME!! It's a great book that has so much information that I hate having to put it down. Thanks for that recommendation!!!

tigir · 12-03-2006, 03:51 PM

HOPE to me means...the hope that two little girls will pull through and have happy, healthy and normal lives.

A friend of mine from highschool was killed in an auto accident last Saturday. Her two girls survived, but have severe injuries. Her 7yr old sustained two broken legs, arms, broken ribs, a crushed femur and her hip/pelvis was also involved. None of her vital organs were hurt so although she has a very long road ahead of her, she should recover. The 2mo old has brain swelling and something happened to her eyes. They switched her meds a few days ago and the last I heard she showed signs of responding, so hoping she will pull through, it has been touch and go with her.

It has been about 11yrs since I had spoken with their mom, but her mother would keep me updated whenever I would run into her. She had moved back into this area and I happened to be on the same highway that day. I passed by that scene as they were removing her oldest from the car, not even realizing.

So HOPE is for them today.

Liz ~ I am starting my advent wreath tonight (12/3) since this is the actual start of the first week. I am still trying to get Fall out of my house! lol I get confused about some of those things too, and because I am not able attend mass regularly I tend to miss ember days once in awhile and certain feasts - I have tried to make sure and put it on my calendar now. As far as gifts...well, I would love to have a no gifts policy, but unfortunately that just doesn't fly with DHs family - they actually take offense to it.

We have been able to convince them to cut back a bit though. I am hoping we get to do the sharing tree as a family this year and make it a "giving" year. We are working on making sure our children can make the sacrifice of another toy so that someone else can be warm and eat this winter.

CelticSpirit · 12-03-2006, 05:18 PM

Tam--that's so sad! My prayers are with those girls. :pray:

dachshundqueen · 12-03-2006, 05:27 PM

On the newsletter this week from the church it said that this week was "Love" and the last week of advent is "Hope"........

LIz

juststartn · 12-03-2006, 09:09 PM

I thought I knew where my Advent wreath was. I was wrong. I went looking for it this afternoon, and cannot find it.

ARGHHHH!!!!!!!

This is what happens when we rearrange our house and things get moved.

UGH

Rachel