Christian Polygamy? - Page 3

Anonykat · 04-21-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elocinintherain

not to knitpick, but he kind of did... Adam + Lilith, and Adam + Eve.

again, you are asking people about a Christian viewpoint. Lilith is not accepted in Christian theology. If you want to talk about polygamy in general, you should start a new thread.

Anonykat · 04-21-2008, 12:04 AM

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they read the bible also but i think you cant judge anyone who does poly and are christians. what they do in private is between god and them

It's not about judging individuals; it's about what is accepted Christian theology. She asked and we are answering. I could start the First Christian Church of Hamsters, where you have to eat a hamster during the service, and just because I SAY it's Christian, doesn't mean it is.

To see what a religion really believes, look at what its founder said and did. Christ didn't teach polygamy anymore than He taught eating hamsters.

If you want to practice polygamy, no one cares. No one here is going to burn your house down. But to say this is part of Christian theology is just false.

PollySis · 04-21-2008, 07:25 AM

But Mormons are christians, so to one branch of xianity at least, it's valid and presumably can be backed up by scripture. But then, it's a vast text written by many people and as we all know, contradictory anyway so I'd imagine you can quote scripture to back up pretty well anything.

But the point is... if Mormons are xians and they believe in it - it is justifiable as xian practice, to some xians. Major religions often try to disassociate from 'embarrassing' sects - but surely every expression of it, is part of the body of beliefs of the whole religion, inconvenient/embarrassing or not, Mormons are still xians in the same way Muslim fundamentalists are still muslims, kind of like Hobbes' Leviathan (17thC English philosopher) - every little aspect of some large body, is a part of that body and reflective of it.

sue_trask · 04-21-2008, 07:50 AM

if what they believe poly is right and being christian and right for them so be it. you cant judge them and say they are wrong. christ lived by the laws of the old testment so you cant just forget about and just go along with the new testment either

Ajani · 04-21-2008, 09:27 AM

Christian poligamy does not exist. People can call themselves Christians and commit all kinds of sins, but as was said, it's ultimately between them and God. I've heard of murderers who claim to be Christians and doing God's will (there was a lot of murder in the bible, too).

PBLayzod · 04-21-2008, 10:44 AM

I find it interesting that although it occurred and was regulated in the Old Testament, it doesn't appear to be accepted by modern Jews. I wonder what their take on it is.

Honestly, there isn't any need for it in our culture. I wonder if the religous veiws would be different if it was useful. It seems we always find a way to justify the necessary.

Hezzer · 04-21-2008, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by PBLayzod

I find it interesting that although it occurred and was regulated in the Old Testament, it doesn't appear to be accepted by modern Jews. I wonder what their take on it is.

I found this article on the matter:

Quote:

Is There a Jewish View on Polygamy?

by Rabbi Raymond Apple

SOME biblical figures had more than one wife, but a study of the relevant biblical episodes shows that polygamy was never the Jewish ideal.

When Eve was created, the Torah said, “Thus shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife [singular] and they shall be as one person” (Bere**** 2:24). Sforno comments, “A man should seek to marry a woman [singular] harmoniously suited to him so that together they form a perfect whole.” Generally any instance of polygamy is explained as a special case: Abraham marries a second wife because Sarah is thought to be barren; Jacob takes Rachel as his second wife because his father-in-law deceives him into marrying Leah.

By the time of the prophets monogamy was the rule and symbolised the special relationship between Israel and God. Having more than one wife was like worshipping more than one god. No talmudic rabbi is recorded as having more than one wife, even though one view says one can marry as many wives as he can support (Yevamot 65a).

Monogamy was by now axiomatic – rabbinic discussions speak of “man and wife”, not “man and wives”. Halachic rules were introduced to make polygamy unthinkable: thus it was suggested that a wife could sue for divorce if her husband took another wife (ibid.).

In the Middle Ages Rabbenu Gershom banned polygamy in France and Germany. This became the rule among Ashkenazim.

Non-Ashkenazim were not necessarily bound by this edict but even among them polygamy was rare. The State of Israel prohibits polygamy even though it was a feature of the Islamic societies in which many early immigrants lived before they made aliyah.

The only sanctioned form of bigamy in modern Judaism is a rarely utilised exception designed to assist in a particular tragic circumstance. Halacha prescribes that a gett must be given and received with full cognisance of the situation.

Contemporary halachic practice allows that if, for example, a woman is incurably insane and cannot accept a gett, a man can be given permission by 100 rabbis to marry another woman who is effectively his second wife.

http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=848

PBLayzod · 04-21-2008, 11:59 AM

Thanks! I assusmed it was studied and discussed by someone.

PollySis · 04-21-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajani

....I've heard of murderers who claim to be Christians and doing God's will (there was a lot of murder in the bible, too).

Well plenty of murderers could be xians - if they 'repent' - what's all that stuff about more rejoicing over one lost sheep etc etc? And does that mean catholics aren't 'proper' xians because they believe in confession hail marys etc?

Ajani · 04-21-2008, 02:40 PM

Not sure what the Catholic thing is about, but I'm talking about people who profess to be Christian while sinning, as opposed to someone who kills and repents and sees that what he/she did was wrong.

DiamondInTheRough · 04-21-2008, 04:21 PM

Ajani, do you mean to say that you don't believe an otherwise Christian person is in fact Christian while they are sinning? I don't get it, I thought all Christians were considered sinners, and it would only be natural & expected that they sin, yet still remain Christian...

PBLayzod, I think some people might disagree with you about there not being a need for it in our society. Especially considering the number of extramarital affairs that exist here. Some would argue that at least a polygamous marriage would regulate things somewhat while affording all parties rights/protection under law, and especially hold them to responsibility. I'm not saying this would work for everyone - yet there are a growing number of people who would find this beneficial.

PollySis · 04-21-2008, 04:22 PM

Re: murderers.... Such people might be genuine xians - but mentally ill. Does that make them not xian? Catholics believe that if they confess to a priest and then do the appropriate penance, in the eyes of god they are sinless again (an extreme example would be IRA terrorists in the past, planting a bomb that killed loads of people then going straight to the priest to confess). Again, they would still be 'xians', because of their beliefs. So I thought the murder argument was spurious.

Also a bit offensive and judgemental, to bracket polygamists in with murderers! Or is it just me spotted that?

Personally the only problem I have with polygamy as professed by xians like Mormons is the fact it's all one way - men with mdidle age crises getting swathes of successively younger and younger women.

Not xian, but I have chatted to someone who was the second wife of a polygamous marriage. A few years back one of my neighbours was a muslim lady whos 'husband' was already married elsewhere and largely lived with the first wife (The three didn't all live together but there were 2 households. Wife # 2, the one I knew, had a council (project) house ie: provided by the state, so presumably her upkeep cost him minimal and as far as the state was concerned, she lived as a single mother with her little son, so she got full benefits (welfare) as well. This man didn't even support her financially. She told me she was lonely and unhappy and felt second class because husband was usually with the first wife - but she was the one with the son, which is what kept him coming back. I felt she was being used. She was a lovely lady - but very unhappy.

So my impression of polygamy within a religious context is, that it is a way of using women sexually or in a Henry VIII kind of way to get a son. I'd have thought for a community of people crossing the Rockies, in the 19thC, polygamy was probably a practical solution - the usual thing of bums on seats ie: the more women of childbearing age married off, the more kids, so the future of the sect is guaranteed. Although of course it wouldn't be presented like that.

I have no problem with anyone having multiple partners - but it should cut both ways. In some native American cultures (not all), polygamy was also practiced, and extra wives were seen as status symbols implying the man could support them! But from what I saw of 20thC polygamy, the woman was being supported by the taxpayer, so this man could have more than one partner. I've seen TV documentaries about Mormons and must admit the impression I got wasn't too flattering for them - just creepy men getting younger and younger women, and fooling them into thinking they were there for any other reason than sex. But as I say, you can no doubt use scriptural passages to justify anything.

PBLayzod · 04-21-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondInTheRough

PBLayzod, I think some people might disagree with you about there not being a need for it in our society. Especially considering the number of extramarital affairs that exist here. Some would argue that at least a polygamous marriage would regulate things somewhat while affording all parties rights/protection under law, and especially hold them to responsibility. I'm not saying this would work for everyone - yet there are a growing number of people who would find this beneficial.

I meant economically speaking, it isn't currently necessary. Women don't have to be married and money and land don't have to be passed the nearest male relative.

PollySis · 04-21-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondInTheRough

PBLayzod, I think some people might disagree with you about there not being a need for it in our society. Especially considering the number of extramarital affairs that exist here. Some would argue that at least a polygamous marriage would regulate things somewhat while affording all parties rights/protection under law, and especially hold them to responsibility. I'm not saying this would work for everyone - yet there are a growing number of people who would find this beneficial.

Ah that's multiple partners for the women as well as the men, then?

And as most civilized countries have anti discrimination/gender equality legislation, then I'm assumed by 'affording ALL parties protection under law' you're affirming women's right to have multiple husbands as well as men's right to have many wives?

I feel an extramarital affair coming on - think I'll go get meself a toyboy husband. Brilliant!

Hezzer · 04-21-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondInTheRough

Ajani, do you mean to say that you don't believe an otherwise Christian person is in fact Christian while they are sinning? I don't get it, I thought all Christians were considered sinners, and it would only be natural & expected that they sin, yet still remain Christian...

We're all imperfect and therefore it is impossible to not sin. Being a Christian means that we strive very hard to live according to Christian principles, though we may slip up along the way.

It is altogether another thing to deliberately sin (fornication, adultery, stealing, etc.). Those who "practice" sin are not Christian.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are one. It not a title, but a way of life.