Christian Polygamy? - Page 4

DiamondInTheRough · 04-21-2008, 04:43 PM

PBlayzod, Ah, I see what you mean. I agree women are much more economically stable and self-sufficient today - for that reason polygamous marriages are less likely.

Polly, well that's a loaded question for me, as I'm sure you realize

My standpoint as a Liberal Canadian would definitely lean in the direction you outlined. Yet my stance as a Conservative Muslim would not agree it would be a wise evolution for women - this is a whole other thread though

DiamondInTheRough · 04-21-2008, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hezzer

We're all imperfect and therefore it is impossible to not sin. Being a Christian means that we strive very hard to live according to Christian principles, though we may slip up along the way.

It is altogether another thing to deliberately sin (fornication, adultery, stealing, etc.). Those who "practice" sin are not Christian.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are one. It not a title, but a way of life.

But aren't all sins deliberate? I mean, if you don't know what you are doing is wrong - how can that be held against you?

Anyway, I do get your overall point. I agree anyone who calls themselves anything should strive to be that way. Thank you for your reply

sarahgmac · 04-21-2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hezzer

We're all imperfect and therefore it is impossible to not sin. Being a Christian means that we strive very hard to live according to Christian principles, though we may slip up along the way.

It is altogether another thing to deliberately sin (fornication, adultery, stealing, etc.). Those who "practice" sin are not Christian.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are one. It not a title, but a way of life.

I am curious as to what denomination of Christianity you are. Because I know my father is a Baptist, and he believes that you only need to accept Jesus in your heart to be a Christian. He also believes that the sins are forgiven if you have done this.

Personally, from reading the Bible, I believe you should "try" to live Christ-like life, and not sin. But not every Christian believes that.

I personally believe that as a Christian it is not for me to judge others as to their faith. The only person who knows who the true Christians are and who are not is God. And I believe you could be the first person in Church every Sunday and the last person who leaves...live a seemingly pious life, and not go to heaven. It is not for us to judge what is in people's hearts.

Also I wanted to add, mainstream Mormons do NOT practice polygamy. It is the splinter groups that still do. Mormons do use the New Testament and worship Christ so they are in fact Christians. They believe in an extra prophet than most Christians do.

PBLayzod · 04-21-2008, 05:06 PM

There are 2 schools of thought:
- once saved, always saved (example: Baptist)
- you can lose your salvation by sinning (example: Assemblies of God)

Then there are plenty of sects who aren't considered true x-ains by certain other sects. Mormans are probably the most often group left out, but some folks also leave out Church of Christ and other more mainstream groups.

Hezzer · 04-21-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondInTheRough

But aren't all sins deliberate? I mean, if you don't know what you are doing is wrong - how can that be held against you?

I use the word deliberate as in . . . . planned.

Think of a teen driver who, because of inexperience, overturns on a curve, loses control of their car, and hits and kills a person walking down the side of road

verses

A teen driver who takes a dare to run over a pedestrian with his car

In the first case, the driver never meant it to happen. In the second case, the driver planned it.

It like comparing the Apostle Peter's sins of pride and impetuousness to Judas Iscariot's plan to betray Jesus.

Were they both deliberate. Yes, I guess you could say that.

But, their intentions and motives make a big difference as to the gravity of the sin.

DiamondInTheRough · 04-21-2008, 05:12 PM

Hezzer, I can see how you rationalize it. Personally, I would consider the first incident with the teen boy to be an accident, and not a sin on his part. (Unless by inexperience you mean he didn't have a license, or perhaps was under the influence.)

Hezzer · 04-21-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondInTheRough

Personally, I would consider the first incident with the teen boy to be an accident, and not a sin on his part.

Yes. Exactly. You got my point.

Sometimes we sin by accident. It's not that we wanted to or planned it. It just happened and is instantly regretted. Of course, regret must be couple with repentance.

It's not the same as scheming to cheat on my taxes, planning the next excursion with your extramarital lover, etc. Those things take forethought and planning. It's what the Bible describes as "practicing" sin.

Hezzer · 04-21-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahgmac

I am curious as to what denomination of Christianity you are.

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahgmac

Because I know my father is a Baptist, and he believes that you only need to accept Jesus in your heart to be a Christian.

My mother-in-law was Baptist up to her death and my brother-in-law is a Baptist minister, so I've been asked many times if I've been saved or if I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior in my heart. Have I accepted him? Yes. Am I saved? I really hope so. But the concept has too many holes in it for me.

Does that mean that we have to have faith in God and genuinely belief in his Son, Jesus and accept him as the Messiah? If that were really enough, then Satan and his demons would be saved. They know quite well who Jesus is and that he is in fact the son of God and our savior. Jesus said in James 2:18 "You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."

In her ministry, my mother spoke with a Baptism man who said he was saved. He said that he could commit any sin he wanted. He could even kill her right there on the spot and it wouldn't jeopardize his salvation because he had been saved.

I was a little taken aback. I think it's presumptious on the part of any human to just assume that they've been saved. We can work really hard to conform to God's standards as much as our sinful state allows, but ultimately, that's a decison for God to make. I mean Zephaniah 2:3 says "Seek God, all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of God's anger. "

I've known many who have said "I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior", yet I see by the way that they live their life in contrast with the Bible's teaching that they're really not living up to that. Our faith and acceptance of Jesus moves us to prove it through works, action, and the way the we live our life. We have to conform to his standards of conduct and morality. If that is not maintained, then I do not believe a person can truly expect to be saved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahgmac

Personally, from reading the Bible, I believe you should "try" to live Christ-like life, and not sin.

I wholeheartedly agree with that. We need to do the very best that we can despite our imperfect state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahgmac

I personally believe that as a Christian it is not for me to judge others as to their faith. The only person who knows who the true Christians are and who are not is God. It is not for us to judge what is in people's hearts.

I agree with that too. Only God knows what is in each of our hearts, and there are plenty of people who put on a good show when they're really just big hypocrites.

sarahgmac · 04-21-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hezzer

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

My mother-in-law was Baptist up to her death and my brother-in-law is a Baptist minister, so I've been asked many times if I've been saved or if I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior in my heart. Have I accepted him? Yes. Am I saved? I really hope so. But the concept has too many holes in it for me.

Does that mean that we have to have faith in God and genuinely belief in his Son, Jesus and accept him as the Messiah? If that were really enough, then Satan and his demons would be saved. They know quite well who Jesus is and that he is in fact the son of God and our savior. Jesus said in James 2:18 "You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."

In her ministry, my mother spoke with a Baptism man who said he was saved. He said that he could commit any sin he wanted. He could even kill her right there on the spot and it wouldn't jeopardize his salvation because he had been saved.

I was a little taken aback. I think it's presumptious on the part of any human to just assume that they've been saved. We can work really hard to conform to God's standards as much as our sinful state allows, but ultimately, that's a decison for God to make. I mean Zephaniah 2:3 says "Seek God, all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you may be concealed in the day of God's anger. "

I've known many who have said "I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior", yet I see by the way that they live their life in contrast with the Bible's teaching that they're really not living up to that. Our faith and acceptance of Jesus moves us to prove it through works, action, and the way the we live our life. We have to conform to his standards of conduct and morality. If that is not maintained, then I do not believe a person can truly expect to be saved.

Thanks for the honest answers. My father believes that once saved you can commit any sin. And I said that you wouldn't have it in your heart to do horrible things..(ie murder, molest children) if Jesus was really in your heart. Again, this isn't for me to judge, but you have to think about that. He said that their are going to be murderers and child predators in heaven. I told him I believe that my God is a just God too, and that those people wouldn't be in heaven and if they were, I don't want to go there.

Well, my father freaked out. But then he said because he was "saved" that he knows his family is "saved". That is the part I find utterly ridiculous. He thinks because we are "his" daughters that we are saved just because he is???? I don't, but I could worship satan and have him in my heart...how could I be saved then?

But then again, I can go on and on about my father's beliefs, sorry I let myself rant this far.

Thanks for answering!

IFBPreachersWife · 04-21-2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

In her ministry, my mother spoke with a Baptism man who said he was saved. He said that he could commit any sin he wanted. He could even kill her right there on the spot and it wouldn't jeopardize his salvation because he had been saved.

My husband is an independent Baptist pastor and we believe "IF saved, always saved" Yes, after salvation, you can commit any sin you want to, but the difference between someone who continues to sin on purpose and those that don't is that God changes their 'want to'

The Bible says that we're a new creature in Christ after salvation and we no longer want to sin against the very One who gave up His own life to save us from our sins. A person that can gloat about their ability to continue in sin has most likely never been saved. And I'm not judging...the Bible says that God chastens those that He loves (referring to those who have trusted him as Savior vs His love for the world in general) and that if a person is without chastisement, then they are a bastard (without a heavenly Father) and not a son.

I have nothing to add to the conversation as I can see it could become a very deep well really quick but I just had to say that I totally LOL about the hamster eating church! hehe I'll have to talk to dh about whether that should be a membership requirement

Ajani · 04-22-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Also a bit offensive and judgemental, to bracket polygamists in with murderers! Or is it just me spotted that?

As a non-Christian, I can see how you think you've "spotted" something. God's word is quite clear that all sin is the same. Gossip, adultery, murder, lying... all equal. None worse or better than another. It's us as imperfect humans who assign levels to things like sin. God doesn't. It's all the same in His eyes (save for something called "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit," which is in essence denying God. That is the "worst" sin, so to speak, which denies one access to Heaven. And let's face it, if you're denying God, you're not His follower anyway, so it's not like God is turning anyone away. People make the choice not to follow Him to Heaven. But anyway, that's a whole other topic). The point is that all sin is considered equal in God's eyes.

elocinintherain · 04-22-2008, 01:53 PM

Wow, this thread has grown. I would just like to thank everyone for their responses. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

PollySis · 04-22-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajani

....God's word is quite clear that all sin is the same. Gossip, adultery, murder, lying... all equal. None worse or better than another. It's us as imperfect humans who assign levels to things like sin. God doesn't. It's all the same in His eyes (save for something called "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit," which is in essence denying God. That is the "worst" sin, so to speak, which denies one access to Heaven. ....The point is that all sin is considered equal in God's eyes.

So to paraphrase George Orwell, *All sins are equal but some more equal than others*??? Literally in the same breath you say all sins are equal and then go on to say blasphemy is the 'worst'... Eh???? Can't for the life of me see how gossip is equal (or is it equal but less equal?) to murder!

This is why, to me, it is a historical thing rather than a workable thing in the modern world. How can you live by a book full of contradictions - don't you end up being contradictory yourself? (Hmmm think I just seen the evidence of that!) And is it 'sin' if it's done by someone because they're mentally ill, which was my example above? Would a woman murdering her husband who'd systematically abused her for years, be a sinner? And would she be more of a sinner than the man? And how can you equate murder to polygamy? Is that sane?

For me as a pagan, I haven't really got that concept of gods who hate people or decide certain actions are 'sin'. It's a human concept - not a god's. Why would an all powerful being care who you slept with, what you wore, or anything about you or your actions? Seems so alien to me but then all these rather draconian concepts come from the Middle East - and I don't. Got no problem with polygamy - so long as it's not used to abuse and oppress women.

Carrie24TX · 04-22-2008, 04:47 PM

Polly what she is referring to is that in Gods eyes, sin is sin. No matter how small or big we make it out to be. He just sees sin as it is, disobedience. So yes in his eyes murder is just as bad as lusting, etc. We are the ones who have made a scale of which is worse.

Ajani · 04-22-2008, 04:53 PM

I have no concept of a God who hates people either, for the record. I do have a concept of one who loves so much that He sacrificed everything to give us the chance to be close to Him again. But I didn't understand that until I got to know Him, so I totally understand your confusion.

As for all sin being equal but one, it's true. All sin is equal, and none separate us from God's love. The only thing that separates us from Him is rejecting him (historically called "blaspheming the Holy Spirit). Of course our rejection of another separates us from that person. Therefore it's looked on as a greater sin, since it is the only one that can eternally divide us from Him as long as we're living it out. The rest, as Christians, we strive to not commit. But you can't commit that one and call yourself a Christian at the same time. Kinda impossible to reject someone and believe in and follow Him at the same time.