Christian Polygamy? - Page 6

*~SugarPlums~* · 04-24-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elocinintherain

Do you agree with a plural spiritual marriage, as long as it is between consenting adults and is not abusive?

Nope. Do not agree. My opnion is that a marriage is between 2 people.

Now, if you are not married and have an open relationship, I just consider that as one or both people in the relationship are not ready to seriously commit. (fyi not something I would do)

I have always been confused by poligamy because it is not a real/recognized marriage anyway so technically, to me , it is just cheating or like I mentioned above, an open relationship.

*I do realize that they feel/believe it is real.*

amlp311 · 05-02-2008, 12:43 PM

Hezzer,

Great explanation! I have nothing to add, except my own sinful nature would cause me to beat the tar out of my husband and the "other" wife if that were ever my reality, LOL!

My husband and I have such an amazing bond and friendship, I simply cannot imagine someone else in interfering in our very intimate relationship.

juststartn · 05-02-2008, 02:50 PM

As per the original thread...

NO, polygamy is NOT Christian. Period. As all of the pp's have elaborated with scripture, it seems overkill for me to post the same information.

Now, as a Catholic, I feel I must explain a bit more re: the priests marrying comments.

First of all....priests have been--and some are, married. In fact, there are Catholic priests right now who are married. There are more than 20 rites in the Catholic Church. And in some of those rites, the priests may be married. The Roman, or Latin, rite is the most well known, however, there are many many others--they believe the same things we do, and are under the authority of the Holy Father, but their Masses are celebrated differently, and they may be under different bishops (those of their particular rite vs being under the bishop of the Latin rite in the same area). However, those priests must be married before they become a priest, and if their wife dies, they can not remarry. And bishops are not married. THere are some converts from the Anglican/Episcopal church in the priesthood, who were married when they were Anglican priests, and have been ordained as Roman Catholic priests while still married. But they too cannot remarry should their wife die before they do. And there are not very many of them. They are by far the exception and not the rule....

As far as the historical aspects of a married clergy...

Yes, there have been priests married before in the Church. They were never a large number. Priests are to live a life like Christ--they serve as an "alter Christus"--another Christ. Christ never married, physically. But He is married to the Church. And as a priest, they are called to be married to the Church, as well.

I hope that this explains some things. If you have other questions, there is a thread for the Catholic Cysters here, where you can ask questions, if you'd like.

Rachel

PBLayzod · 05-02-2008, 02:52 PM

Rachel ~ I knew a married priest. He was originally Episcopalian, but converted. He and his wife divorced and then remarried. His wife was my OB when I first started ttc. He was the headmaster for the Catholic HS in my hometown.

juststartn · 05-02-2008, 02:56 PM

That's cool! I've never had the pleasure to meet one...but I know that they are out there.

Hezzer · 05-02-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juststartn

Yes, there have been priests married before in the Church. They were never a large number. Priests are to live a life like Christ--they serve as an "alter Christus"--another Christ. Christ never married, physically. But He is married to the Church. And as a priest, they are called to be married to the Church, as well.

Origins are a big deal to me. I don't want rules and doctrines of men. I want someone to flip open the Bible and point me to some scriptures that show me why it is so. Not everything is addressed in in the Bible in black and white, but the principles therein help guide us to the right conclusions.

The apostle Paul, converted by Christ himself, showed balance and restraint in his presentation of celibacy and marriage. But he never made it a matter of faithfulness or unfaithfulness or any kind of requirement. It is, rather, a question of free choice.

Those man-made rules crept in much later, as predicted by him actually . . . 1 Timothy 4:1-3: 1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry . . .

Jesus never admonished his apostles, disciples, etc. in a way to discourage them from marrying, nor did he set down any such guidelines. If remaining unmarried were what he wanted for overseers in the congregations, it would be down in writing - if not said by him then said by his apostles. Standards for overseers are found in the Bible, and that "rule" is not among them. (1 Timothy 3:2).

If the Catholic church wishes to make such rules, it is entirely their perogative, just like the FLDS promote the idea of polygamy. Neither is founded in the Bible, though.

Jashobeam · 05-02-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hezzer

If the Catholic church wishes to make such rules, it is entirely their perogative, just like the FLDS promote the idea of polygamy. Neither is founded in the Bible, though.

Our pastor once said, "This is a rule here (at the school). There is no verse for it, but it is a rule." I thought it was very good of him to explain why we had rules, and the difference between those and commandments. Usually the rules that were not based on commandments in Scripture, you were not likely to get kicked out of school for. Our school/church was big on the study of Scripture and making us ask over and again, "Why do I believe what I believe?" We had to read books from authors opposed to generally accepted doctrines and then say if we agreed with them or not, and why or why not. It really drove me and DH to look into Scripture for doctrines. That came in handy when he began to talk to someone looking to change denomiations. Dh made him ask what things each believed and why. Neither was our denomination, but DH feels he made the right choice in sticking with his current church which is a lot closer to Bible Truth.

Ella831 · 05-05-2008, 10:42 AM

I believe as the Bible says that God intends marriage to be only with one man and one women. God makes it very clear that nothing other than this is acceptable in His eyes.

lachicarubia · 05-05-2008, 04:23 PM

OK ladies,

I have done a Bible search, and I have found no scripture that forbids marriage to more than 1 wife at a time.

I only found a few scriptures that set forth certain rules when a man has more than 1 wife, and numerous scriptures that tell about men, even Prophets, who have married more than one wife.

I found one that said that the king should not be allowed to "multiply wives unto himself, so that his heart turn not away" but he wasn't allowed to multiply horses unto himself, or multiply silver and gold to himself either, so I think that was just a special requirement for that king at that time, so he would not get distracted, and would be a better king.

Even if would be very difficult for a man to have more than one wife, or for a woman to share her husband without contempt, it is NOT forbidden in the Bible, and if it is NOT forbidden, then it is not a sin.

(I am certainly NOT saying that I would want to share my DH, I don't think he could handle more than 1 wife anyway.)

Since polygamy is not a sin, than, yes, it is possible for Christians to practice polygamy, if it is legal in their country.

In the USA, it is not legal to have more than one wife, so those who wish to practice polygamy must first legally divorce the first wife, so he can marry the second. Since he is no longer legally married to the first wife, the gov't can't charge him with a crime, but then he is also committing adultery, which IS a sin.

In the days of the Mormon pioneers, (which are 100% Christians, hence the name "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yes, I am a Latter-day Saint), not only was polygamy legal, and NOT forbidden by the Lord (not a sin), but it also served a purpose at that time.

Polygamy is not practiced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today, NOT because it is a sin, but because not only is it illegal, there is no longer a need for it, either.

I just want to agree with the OP, that I think it is totally ironic that in this country there are so many people committing adultery, and fornication, and so many men have fathered several illegitimate children with several different women, and many women have several children, each with a different father that she was never married to, and there are people who have paired off, and have intimate relations with those of the same gender, all of which actually are sins that are forbidden in the Bible, yet, our society accepts these sins (and expects EVERYONE to accept those sins), and doesn't question whether those that commit these sins are Christians, but this same society is outraged if a man wants to legally marry more than 1 woman at a time, and has made it against the law.

What a crazy, mixed-up world.

Please note, that although adultry, fornication, and homosexuality are ALL sins that God has forbidden, He (and I) hate the sins, but still love the sinners, and repentance is possible for all of us sinners (no one is without sin) no matter what sins we have comitted.

Someone else posted a quote that stated that all sins are equal, but some are more equal than others, to that I want to comment: Any sin, no matter how big or small, will seperate us from God, because no unclean thing can dwell in His presence, but some sins are considered more serious because they are more difficult to repent of, and to overcome. For example, if you steal something, repentance not only includes admitting that you sinned, saying you are sorry to those you have offended, and asking for forgiveness, but also making restitution; you give back, or pay for the item. But if you kill an innocent person, you can admit that it was wrong, say you're sorry, and ask for forgiveness, but how can you make restitution? You can't bring that person back to life.

Well, this is just my

, you are free to throw tomatoes my way if you want

Hezzer · 05-05-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachicarubia

I only found a few scriptures that set forth certain rules when a man has more than 1 wife, and numerous scriptures that tell about men, even Prophets, who have married more than one wife.

I found one that said that the king should not be allowed to "multiply wives unto himself, so that his heart turn not away" but he wasn't allowed to multiply horses unto himself, or multiply silver and gold to himself either, so I think that was just a special requirement for that king at that time, so he would not get distracted, and would be a better king.

Once again . . . those are references to passages in the Hebrew scriptures - Old Testament - Gensesis through Malachi.

Since we're talking about "Christian" views, one must refer to the Christian Greek scriptures - New Testament - Matthew through Revelation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachicarubia

I just want to agree with the OP, that I think it is totally ironic that in this country there are so many people committing adultery, and fornication, and so many men have fathered several illegitimate children with several different women, and many women have several children, each with a different father that she was never married to, and there are people who have paired off, and have intimate relations with those of the same gender, all of which actually are sins that are forbidden in the Bible, yet, our society accepts these sins (and expects EVERYONE to accept those sins), and doesn't question whether those that commit these sins are Christians, but this same society is outraged if a man wants to legally marry more than 1 woman at a time, and has made it against the law.

Accepted by society maybe, but not by me or my religion.

That being said, I agree with you as far as not hating the sinner, but rather hating the sin.

juststartn · 05-05-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hezzer

Origins are a big deal to me. I don't want rules and doctrines of men. I want someone to flip open the Bible and point me to some scriptures that show me why it is so. Not everything is addressed in in the Bible in black and white, but the principles therein help guide us to the right conclusions.

The apostle Paul, converted by Christ himself, showed balance and restraint in his presentation of celibacy and marriage. But he never made it a matter of faithfulness or unfaithfulness or any kind of requirement. It is, rather, a question of free choice.

Those man-made rules crept in much later, as predicted by him actually . . . 1 Timothy 4:1-3: 1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry . . .

Jesus never admonished his apostles, disciples, etc. in a way to discourage them from marrying, nor did he set down any such guidelines. If remaining unmarried were what he wanted for overseers in the congregations, it would be down in writing - if not said by him then said by his apostles. Standards for overseers are found in the Bible, and that "rule" is not among them. (1 Timothy 3:2).

If the Catholic church wishes to make such rules, it is entirely their perogative, just like the FLDS promote the idea of polygamy. Neither is founded in the Bible, though.

Hm. Well, as you said, there are many things that are not found in the Bible that Christians hold to be true. The Trinity, for one. The Bible itself isn't mentioned. The Apostles surely didn't know that some of the letters that they wrote would survive, in whole or in part...and that there would be those who said that--much less that those letters would end up being assembled into one book....and that then there would be those who said that if something wasn't mentioned in the Bible, it obviously wasn't meant to be...

As far as people being forced to not marry, I believe that your interpretation of that is incorrect. First of all, that verse is not referring to SOME people who FREELY choose not to marry, but instead, to EVERYONE, without regard to their feelings on the matter--that there would come a time when people--ALL PEOPLE--would not be allowed to marry. A man who believes he has a vocation to the priesthood, must be willing to sacrifice the possibility of marriage. Yes, it is a sacrifice. And actually, a man who doesn't feel like he would make a good husband or father, is generally discouraged from the priesthood. Sacrifice is a part and parcel of both married and celibate lives...

As far as Jesus not laying down laws regarding who could do what in the Church, well, frankly, we don't have everything Jesus said, written down in the Bible. We have the fragments of written material that lasted until those remnants were collected, and compiled, into what we call the Bible. The letters in the New Testament, for instance, are not all in one piece. Some parts, of the same books, are from different letters. A page here, a snippet there--sometimes, that was all that was left. And, again, the apostles used those letters (and other writings that later became known as the New Testament) to deal with individual issues in the congregations...not to give them each and every blow-by-blow detail of Christianity set in place. MUCH of the teaching in those early centuries was oral...as it was in EVERY facet of life then--most people couldn't read, so a book wasn't going to do a lot of good. Besides, why write down what was common knowledge?

I suspect you've never read what the Church fathers had to say on some of these subject. The Church fathers being those who were disciples of, and successors to the apostles themselves. Read up on those. They make alot of things clearer as to what the apostles themselves taught, in those earliest years of the Church.

Rachel

Jashobeam · 05-05-2008, 07:55 PM

1 Timothy 4
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

No Scripture states that men in any church have to stay unmarried, or to vow to God to stay unmarried. That is a teaching of the Catholic church.

1 Corinthians 7:35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

If a man wants to marry and serve the Lord, he is allowed to by Bible standards.

1 Corinthians 7:2
But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

Peter was married:
Mark 1:30
Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her.

lachicarubia · 05-05-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hezzer

Once again . . . those are references to passages in the Hebrew scriptures - Old Testament - Gensesis through Malachi.

Since we're talking about "Christian" views, one must refer to the Christian Greek scriptures - New Testament - Matthew through Revelation.

Hezzer,
Well, the last I heard, all of us Christians believe the Old AND New Testaments of the Bible are the word of God. Or should we just pick and chose those scriptures that support our particular views, and leave the rest out?

Second of all, I did a search of the ENTIRE Bible, Old and New Testaments, and those scriptures (mentioned above) were all I found in the Bible that talked about having more than 1 wife. I didn't find any passages in the New Testament that declared polygamy to be a sin. If you have found such a verse in the New Testament, please share, so we can all be enlightened.

Rachel,
I LOVE that quote in your sig: "We homeschool cause we've seen the village, and don't want it raising our children!"

Hezzer · 05-05-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juststartn

Hm. Well, as you said, there are many things that are not found in the Bible that Christians hold to be true. The Trinity, for one. The Bible itself isn't mentioned.

And that's why I do not subscribe to the belief of the Trinity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachicarubia

Well, the last I heard, all of us Christians believe the Old AND New Testaments of the Bible are the word of God. Or should we just pick and chose those scriptures that support our particular views, and leave the rest out?

Yes, we do believe in both books. But the fact that the question was couched in terms of whether or not polygamy is Christian requires that we provide the answer from the Christian Greek scrptures. Interestingly, Jews live by the Hebrew scriptures yet do not advocate polygamy either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lachicarubia

Second of all, I did a search of the ENTIRE Bible, Old and New Testaments, and those scriptures (mentioned above) were all I found in the Bible that talked about having more than 1 wife. I didn't find any passages in the New Testament that declared polygamy to be a sin. If you have found such a verse in the New Testament, please share, so we can all be enlightened.

Look back through all the the other posts. It would be way to redundant to keep posting them when they're already there.

Numerous verses have been cited from the Christian Greek scriptures that specifically mention only having *one* wife - one of which quotes Jesus himself. You can't get a much more Christian veiw than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juststartn

I suspect you've never read what the Church fathers had to say on some of these subject. The Church fathers being those who were disciples of, and successors to the apostles themselves. Read up on those. They make alot of things clearer as to what the apostles themselves taught, in those earliest years of the Church.

I'm am interested in what Jesus and his apostles had to say as recorded in the Bible. It was aptly prophesied that false teaching would creep in not very long after Jesus left this earth. Any "add-on" teachings that are not in line with the scriptures will always be highly suspect to me.

Ajani · 05-06-2008, 09:26 AM

Re: The Trinity not being mentioned. Neither are computers, but they exist. Father, Son, Holy Spirit make up what people over the centuries have come to call the Trinity. It's just giving a name to the triune existance of God.