Conflict and Religious Beliefs. How do you reconcile them?
I've been thinking about this, and would like to ask it here as it's the only religious forum I use that is multi-faith, and different perspectives are interesting.
What do cysters think about the whole religion and war thing? Looking at what's happening in the Lebanon now, and in Iraq, etc - basically any war there ever was, there's always religion somewhere in the mix. Either different religions, or sectarian violence as we had in Eire and the UK, for 30 years. I'm talking terrorism and all out war.
What intrigues me is the way we seem more likely to be brought into conflicts, when world leaders themselves are religious. Blair, for example, is a practising christian - which is something we probably haven't truly had in British politics for 100 years as this is culturally a fairly irreligious society! Suddenly, when he's in, we're embroiled in endless conflict. I'm talking in broader terms than Iraq - generally - throughout history - what is the relationship between various gods and their followers and war?
Is it also a cop out to say the humankind, not god, create conflict? I hear that a lot but it seems to me to be sophistry, and not rigorous thinking. Easy to say, but does it stand up to scrutiny? If you believe that, how would you defend that concept? (Genuinely, genuinely curious as the only people I speak to in any depth about such things tend to be other pacifists - either pagans or buddhists).
Why do some world religions appear to sell 'peace' and 'love' and then fight and kill other people in the name of their gods? (I don't just mean christianity, I mean almost any religion). Is it a cop out to then say those who are willing to die for their beliefs are extremists? (The implication being they're not like the rest of the followers of X or Y religion...) In the english Civil War the parliamentarians had the saying 'God is on our side' - but their opponents the Royalists, believed the same thing - in fact, they believed the King was god's representative on earth. One side was willing to kill or die for their beliefs - and so was the other. That was not even overtly sectarian as both sides were what you'd call Anglican, now.
How do religious people (of any faith) reconcile killing done not by them but in their name?
I know this could be contentious, but it is not intended that way. Just watching the news, I often wonder what people who follow the faiths represented in various conflicts, really feel about it? What do your holy scriptures say about conflict? Are there contradictory messages in your scriptures, and if so, how do you personally decide which to stick with?
Offering this question up with respect and interest. It's something I find hard to get my head round.
Oh, one last question. Without religions, would there be no war/terrorism at all?
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I can only give a brief answer at the moment (need to get lunch made), but I struggle with the whole war thing. As far as the latest instalment goes (Israel/Lebanon), it's tougher for me because on one hand, I am a pacifist. On the other, I believe that Israel is God's chosen land, and that they have every right to defend themselves against the terrorists (not the innocents) who have attacked them. It's creating a conflict for me, personally. But as my pastor often points out, faith and life create tension. Tension is not a bad thing, in and of itself. It's how we face it and deal with it that helps make us who we are.
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Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
I second this (I belong to a peace church). Jesus does not sanction war or fighting by Christians. This is what confuses me about Blair and Bush, to be honest. And it frustrates me, too, because it makes so many people think that Christianity's all about fighting in the name of oil and power . . . because it's not!
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Well the war going on has got nothing to do with religion.
It has got to do with Israel and there oppression and confinement of people who are different.
God didnt make religion difficult; MAN mad religion difficult.
How do religious people (of any faith) reconcile killing done not by them but in their name?
Are you saying how can religious people reconcile killing done by members of their religion? If I understand the question, then my answer would be: I don't think they can, which I why I chose the religion which I did.
My religious affiliation - Jehovah's Witnesses - are found in over 200 countries worldwide numbering over 6 million. We do not support or participate in wars in any way, nor do we pledge allegience to the governments and authorities who implement such plans.
From the Hitler Regime in Germany to the Vietnam drafting days in the US, Jehovah's Witnesses all over the world have been persecuted, imprisoned, and even killed for refusing to go to war.
Forgive me for going off on a tangent, but many people are surprised to know that JW's were one of the groups forced into concentration camps in Germany. They were indentified by a purple triangle worn on their clothing. Interesting, JW's were given an opportunity to leave the concentration camps. To be freed, they had to renounce their religion, pledge their allegience to Hitler, and sign documentation attesting to those facts. Sadly, some did succumb to fear of man, but to their credit far more died at the hands of the Nazi's - ever faithful to their God and beliefs.
My thought is this: I will die for my beliefs, but I will never kill for them - nor support or sanction those who do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PollySis
Why do some world religions appear to sell 'peace' and 'love' and then fight and kill other people in the name of their gods?
I don't think I can answer that question without offending a whole lot of people, so if you would like to discuss this subject further, please feel free to PM me.
It has got to do with Israel and there oppression and confinement of people who are different.
This could seriously derail an otherwise insightful thread, considering the diversity on this board and the fact that not everyone vilifies Israel in this conflict.
Hezzer, I'm one of the minority who is well aware of the history of JWS in WW2, and you do well to remind people of the fact they too were a persecuted group. That's why our Misconceptions threads here are so valuable, I think. The more of us that can dispel myths and misconceptions about our beliefs, to others, the less likely such things are to happen again.
My Dad was one of the British troops who didn't come home in 1945, but was in palestine so ended up spending another 2 years or so in the Army, whilst Israel was set up. And I know the worst action he saw was when his unit were ambushed by people trying to get in to the new country, before it was properly set up (soon to be Israelis) which is also something you read nothing about, anywhere. It's ironic that he risked his life fighting Nazis for years - as did my grandad - but was almost murdered by Israeli terrorists, but I suppose that's also the nature of conflict - that true values go haywire.
There was a point during the Iraq fighting that more British soldiers had been killed by US 'friendly fire' than by the 'enemy'. How do governments find these things acceptable? I passed an Army recruitment stand the other day, begging young men to join the 'Yorkshire Warriors'. I worked out I had 4 immediate ancestors went to War last Century in one Yorkshire unit or another. Only 2 came back alive. That's not a great survival rate, 50%, is it? If men could give birth to their sons, like we do, they wouldn't be so blase about blowing them up, is the blunt truth.
In the case of the latest thing in Lebanon, I have to admit my sympathy would always be for the Lebanese people, (and I'm part Jewish by birth) but in a way it's immaterial where our sympathies lie. As the minute anyone takes up arms, their cause - however good - is negated. The probklem there is, when a powerful army of a rich country decides to turn on innocent civilians, how could you not respond, if you were there? We should always side with the oppressed, not the religion/politics, is the only way I can see it. At the same time, I don't believe in war or terror - but I can see how 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. There are some situations where you'd have to fight back, or go under. I got thinking about this after I saw a philosopher saying words to the effect that 'God does not exist, because if he did, he was the cause of every war there'd ever been' and I think there's truth in that. If it's man, not god, then how come the most extreme acts of violence are carried out by the most 'dedicated' followers of whichever path it is? And how would we then account for the 'God is on our side' message you inevitably get from both sides, in any conflict?
It does seem to me the Iraq thing was always more about oil and money than god, and yet god came into it because of who was fighting who, their agendas, etc (and I do think it's now obvious - especially from their overheard conversation last week, that Bush and Blair really are on a crusade, which terrifies me).
I do wonder if women 'ran the world' (and not man-inmitating women like Margaret Thatcher and Condoleesa Rice, who got where they got by being even worse than men... but real women), if it wouldn't be a better place? As we bring life into the world, we're much more wary of squandering it. Look at the common sense - and genuine attempts to understand eachother - we have here, in this mainly female environment. Is it also to do with the fact that most major world religions are male oriented, with male gods/prophets etc, so automatically factor out the feminine? And as gender is a deep part of belief, that fuels the fire, too?
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As a Christian, I dont think its a cop out at all to say that Mankind creates conflict, not God. Just because some people decided to do something in God's name doesnt mean that its what God wants. People arent perfect, and do things they shouldnt. God IS perfect, and loving enough to accept us even with all our flaws.
You ask: Why do some world religions appear to sell 'peace' and 'love' and then fight and kill other people in the name of their gods?
and my answer is: Basically, people are selfish. For example: John Doe who supposedly is a christian decideds that he doesnt like ____ (fill in the blank) and thinks "we" should do something about it. He finds some other supposedly christian people who feel the same way and the next thing you know they are grouping together to start something. Meanwhile, John Doe's minister is sitting back shaking his head knowing that John may claim he is a christian, but he sure isnt acting like one.
Get what I mean?
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Running low on time here, so I can only say a little bit this go around. But...
"Why do some world religions appear to sell 'peace' and 'love' and then fight and kill other people in the name of their gods?"
Part of that is often because they can then put the "blame" for everything that's being done on God, not themselves. "I didn't start this war, it was God who commanded me to do so! Do not ask me to grant you mercy. You have offended and defiled God, and this is his punishment!" This little example here, obviously, isn't going to be applicable to all wars, or even to many, but that's one reason why man does something in the name of another, is to put the responsibility and blame on another, because they themselves know that it's wrong, but they care more about getting what they want than what they've got to be willing to do in order to get it. They couldn't take the blame they'd put on themselves, but they don't have any problem at all imagining that it's somebody else's will, and they're just doing what they're "commanded" to do.
Conflict and Religious Beliefs. How do you reconcile them? 
