Cysters of faith, what do you think: Non-Christian texts sought for courtroom oaths

Ammaarah · 07-27-2005, 07:25 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/27/quran.courtroom.ap/index.html

As a Muslim, I wouldn't swear on a Bible. But I have never heard of Muslims swearing on the Qur'an, either.

The article mentions that the courts are gonna try to get copies of the Torah, the Bhagavad-Gita, and Qur'an. Is it common for Jews to swear on the Torah, or Hindus to swear on the Bhagavad-Gita? What about other big religions?

And also, Islamic etiquette is very strict about how to handle and store the Qur'an. We are supposed to be in a ritually pure state when handling it, and it shouldn't be handled carelessly or handled by people who aren't clean.

What do you ladies think? Are the courts just trying to be P.C? Is there a point to making people swear on a holy book if it's not in their tradition?

Jashobeam · 07-27-2005, 08:09 PM

I personally don't believe on swearing on anything, and from what I understand you can say your religious views do not permit you to swear on a Bible and they should allow you to just swear or affirm you will tell the truth. There are actually verses in Scripture that say not to swear on anything, not even our own head, so I would be uncomfortable swearing on a Bible myself.

Here is how one state handles it http://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/evidence/#art6

Ammaarah · 07-27-2005, 08:18 PM

Interesting! It seems weird to have people swear on a book, even "the" book, and I know I have always been told not to "swear to God." Thanks for the link.

deblynnc · 07-27-2005, 08:19 PM

I haven't spent much time in court, so I really don't know about how the various religions handle this. I have not heard about anyone being sworn in on the Torah, Qur'an or Bhagavad-Gita. Though, that doesn't mean no one has.

I do know that the law doesn't require that the Bible be used. A person simply has to affirm that they will tell the truth to the best of their ability. The little I have read about the history of this practice said that at one time people believed that the Bible possessed the power to make people tell the truth. Since in this day and age we know that not to be true, I don't think there is a point to it. It is just a tradition that began for a reason that no longer exists, but the tradition continues.

From the link you provided, it sounds like the ACLU is trying to make the courts P.C., but that some in the judicial system aren't too keen on the idea. Of course, I don't think it is very P.C. to assume that people of non-Christian faiths want to adopt a new tradition using their own holy books, just because the ACLU says they should have the option. I would be very interested to hear what people of other faiths have to say about it.

Debbie

Ammaarah · 07-28-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deblynnc

Of course, I don't think it is very P.C. to assume that people of non-Christian faiths want to adopt a new tradition using their own holy books, just because the ACLU says they should have the option. I would be very interested to hear what people of other faiths have to say about it.

Debbie

Exactly what I was thinking...they seem so gung-ho on going after "Christian traditions" (in quotes because as Jashobeam said, many Christians won't swear on anything) but they don't give a hoot about other religions. It's like the appearance of political correctness but it's so lame IMO.

I also heard about a cross display in some community that was ruled unConstitutional, and then the court said it would be OK if they made it part of an interfaith display. Now, that is so silly to me! I am not Christian but I am certainly not threatened by Christian (or any other religious) symbols. I do feel threatened by the folks who want to eliminate all religion!

Jashobeam · 07-29-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammaarah

Exactly what I was thinking...they seem so gung-ho on going after "Christian traditions" (in quotes because as Jashobeam said, many Christians won't swear on anything) but they don't give a hoot about other religions. It's like the appearance of political correctness but it's so lame IMO.

I also heard about a cross display in some community that was ruled unConstitutional, and then the court said it would be OK if they made it part of an interfaith display. Now, that is so silly to me! I am not Christian but I am certainly not threatened by Christian (or any other religious) symbols. I do feel threatened by the folks who want to eliminate all religion!

It reminds me of the nonsense of pulling a "racist cartoon" from U.S. airwaves because it gave a so called detremental view of Mexicans. Know where that cartoon IS broadcast? Mexico! Why? They think it's hillarious! My cousins and I grew up watching that show and many of them or their mothers ended up dating and even marrying men who were born south of the U.S. boarder! I agree there are times when things are offensive and need to be pulled from children's TV, etc. but somethings just fall prey to the PC hatchet for no good reason.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,48872,00.html

Yes, some people have a life long goal of erasing all religion from the face of the earth. I'm sad at the inroads they have made in the U.S. I don't believe in the Easer bunny, but I'm not about to tell other people they cannot put a big rabbit in the public park every year!

CelticSpirit · 07-31-2005, 05:20 PM

It sounds like the ACLU is looking to make everything PC again.

Can't these wingnuts just go away already?! I'm so sick of them.

disintegration · 07-31-2005, 06:49 PM

I don't think that they are trying to erase religion from the world; I do think they are just trying to reflect the varied peoples that live in this country. There is no one religion in this world, and that’s why I love it here. You can be what you want, however one religion should not prevail over another one. I personally would not feel right swearing on a Bible, as I am not Christian. Or I would not feel right swearing on the Torah, Qur'an (which I am reading now, and it's taking a long time because I respect its etiquette) or any other important book as I am neither religion. I don't even think I would feel right swearing on any book that is religious because I feel church and state should be separate. I think the government, and the judicial system as a whole, is trying (albeit, weirdly) to try to understand that there are other religions in this great country of ours and I have to commend that. I think though, that we should do away with any religious activity in the courts, people are too varied to satisfy us all.

P.S. - The rabbit idea...it's a tradition that goes back to when the Roman's entered Celtic Europe and wanted to convert the Pagans there, they used their traditions to ease the transition. Ostara, the festival of the planting falls around Easter and rabbits (and eggs) were a common symbol of fertility use at this time. So the tradition was assimilated becoming a part of Christianity’s’ history.

Ammaarah · 07-31-2005, 08:04 PM

Tara, if your Qur'an is in English, you don't have to worry as much about the etiquette, just so you know, at least from the scholars I follow. Like you don't have to wash up before reading.

(Of course, if you are reading it in classical Arabic, snaps to you!)

Thanks for weighing in on the issue! Nice to see Madame Stacie poppin' her head in too!

PollySis · 07-31-2005, 09:37 PM

In the UK, there's the old fashioned christian oath and another all-purpose non denominational affirmation. I recently had to give evidence in court, and they flicked through a whole load of oaths - so I suppose they have others, for various faiths too.

In this day and age I think it would be more apt to cut the lot and only have an affirmation. As a practicing pagan, I could never say the christian one, but court's not a place I want to drag my own gods into, either, as in my belief system they are too sacred to be brought into the mundane, or spoken about in front of those who are uninitiated.

Pagans have no creed, or written word. So 'swearing' on a piece of text would be problematical for many of us. I think in the 21st Century, the best solution would be to separate the religion from that scenario entirely and just have one single, non denominational affirmation.

CelticSpirit · 07-31-2005, 10:13 PM

Ammaarah--thanks for that information about the Qu'ran.

PollySis--that's interesting about the Pagan religion as well. There SHOULD be one all purpose "swear" that we all go by in the courts. It would make it so much easier. Besides, does swearing on a bible mean that someone will actually tell the truth who otherwise wouldn't? NO. Liars will continue to lie.

And...thanks for all the opinions here, ladies. It's fascinating to hear what you all have to say. I love these discussions!

disintegration · 07-31-2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammaarah

Tara, if your Qur'an is in English, you don't have to worry as much about the etiquette, just so you know, at least from the scholars I follow. Like you don't have to wash up before reading.

(Of course, if you are reading it in classical Arabic, snaps to you!)

Thanks for weighing in on the issue! Nice to see Madame Stacie poppin' her head in too!

It was lent to me by a freind, I don't want to ruin it for her...she's kill me...lol. Kind of reminds me how my boyfriend went white when I went to touch a book he got when he was Bar Mitzvahed....

Ammaarah · 07-31-2005, 11:39 PM

That is sweet of you, Tara, so keep doing what you're doing...I thought you might just have a library translation or something!

Can I ask which interpretation it is? Abdullah Yusuf Ali is my fave although he uses more parentheses than I do!

Do Jewish people have similar etiquettes with their holy texts? (I am embarassed to be so ignorant about it!)

disintegration · 08-01-2005, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammaarah

That is sweet of you, Tara, so keep doing what you're doing...I thought you might just have a library translation or something!

Can I ask which interpretation it is? Abdullah Yusuf Ali is my fave although he uses more parentheses than I do!

Do Jewish people have similar etiquettes with their holy texts? (I am embarassed to be so ignorant about it!)

I'm not sure which it is, it is a small white book with arabic on the cover and inside is just verses, like quatrains...if that makes sense. As for Jewish holy texts, I believe there is, pertaining to women. Other than that, I am as ignorant as you...so don't be embarrassed!

theflyingturtle · 08-01-2005, 12:41 AM

I'm Jewish---but not really religious....I went to an orthodoxy sort of relgious school for 2 years in Elementary School--what are your questions exactly?

I don't really come in on this thread---I'm just procrastinating cleaning and was checking the new posts--I'll try to remember to come back...

P.S. We had a "ghost court" at the camp I used to work at and you'd always swear to tell the whole truth on the Nancy Drew--lol