Eek! Relatives sneaked my kids christian book/DVD. What would you do?

PollySis · 03-03-2006, 01:54 PM

I'm asking this on pagan forums as well, but just curious to get a multi-faith response, as I'm pretty sure I can guess what the pagan one will be...

I don't talk about my (pagan) beliefs to anyone, even family, believing that to discuss it with often cynical outsiders only risks something I hold very dear being ridiculed. Also, I guess I'm a fairly private person - and it's something I'm not willing to talk about casually.

I'm a member of a well established druid order here in England, write in paganb mags and socially move in pagan circles, if you pardon the pun, so on the whole, it's not an issue.

However... Recently some much loved relatives (one an active church goer - in itself unusual in the UK) gave my kids a pile of books and DVDs. Being very busy I didn't open the bag they were in, or take a closer look. Til yesterday my 11 year old said there was a christian DVD in amongst the stuff (He was amused, by it, nothing more). So I looked at the books and in amongst some 'standard' titles sure enough, one christian book.

Luckily my kids have taken it in the spirit of 'Oh that's funny', but those things evoke a bit of fear in my 5 year old, and the relatives should have known better.

I know my relatives probably have guessed my beliefs, vaguely, simply from the hundreds of books in our living room, maybe sometimes some of my jewellery, the fact they know the gist of some of the stuff I write. Maybe my kids have let slip something, too, I dunno...

I couldn't help finding this offensive and upsetting, despite knowing the spirit it was intended. I'd never, in a million years, slip a book on Aleister Crowley or Chaos Magick into a pile of books I gave to them! I can't understand the cheek of it, to be honest! It obviously had some sort of significance.

Just so you know... I've brought my kids up to be openminded. My two youngest's birth father was half Jewish, half Catholic although he'd turned his back on his Judaism, and was an avid churchgoer, who constantly tried to undermine my beliefs with the kids. (He failed and now is banned by a court from even having contact with the kids, part of the reason being his constant talking about Jesus, which my now 5 year old found frankly scary). The relatives who gave them the book/DVD know that, too. Which is why it's all the more shocking.

It's not like my kids are rampant pagans, either. One of my sons is going to study Religious Education at A Level and his RE teacher says he's gifted an talented - it's not like I've been a bigot, bringing my kids up to only know about my gods. Three of my other sons are at/went to Church of England (protestant) primary schools and the Headteacher of my oldest son's school is an ordained vicar in the C of E. So it's not like my kids don't get constantly exposed to christian culture as it is. (The church school is not just the easiest option either - it's two villages away so I didn't just send them there because it was the nearest school. It costs me a fortune in petrol, when they could just walk to the ordinary non church school in our own village!)

So it's not like my kids need a bit of God to balance things out. They constantly get religious education, even ceremonies, at school and despite my own paganism, I have no problem with that as I think it will broaden their education. I also taught in Catholic and Protestant schools, without any parent or colleague ever suspecting I was a pagan, for a number of years - as, surprisingly, do quite a few pagans - as they are nice working environments with good ethos!

I found the unwanted 'gifts' really offensive and worrying. The relatives involved are elderly and much loved - I'd never in a milion years confront them or hurt their feelings. And I do know they meant no harm by it. But the presumption of it! My blood's boiling again - I'm off for a lie-down.

Just curious - would any of the christian cysters here do something similar? And why? (I once bought a new coat and found an evangelical leaflet in the pocket, when I got it home... scared the bejebez out of me! But it strikes me it's a similar sort of impulse...)

And to cysters of all faiths - including christianity - has anything similar ever happened to you? How did you deal with it?

Loreo123 · 03-03-2006, 03:50 PM

I am a universalist myself, so Ive been able to find insperation in many different religions ,but I do have a problem with people pushing their beliefs on others when it is not wanted.
The fact that this person knew your beliefs were based in paganism and still gave your children those books without asking you first, in my opinion, is very rude.
I would tell this person that you and your children have a set of beliefs that you are all comfortable with and you would appreciate it if they would ask you first, before giving your children any more books based on religion.
I just wonder how this person would have felt if you gave thier children some books based on paganism.

girlygirl522 · 03-03-2006, 04:32 PM

I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to give anybody a gift I knew went against their personal beliefs. But I have known people who probably would and one who did. I was raised Catholic, but switched to Lutheran-ish after I left home. I have an older second cousin who is a priest. He gave me a book of Catholic household prayers for a wedding present, with a slightly condescending note written inside. However, the situation was slightly complicated, and for the sake of my grandma, I let it pass.

I can completely understand not wanting to confront them. I would probably just return it to them and say something like...."Oops, I guess this got in the bag by mistake. You must have meant to give this one to (fill in name)." That way they understand that you are aware of what they were doing and put them on notice not to do it again (if they aren't completely dense).

Also, could it have been a mistake? Maybe they haven't looked beneath the surface appearances at all, and take the fact that you go out of the way to send your children to church schools to mean that you are christian? I don't know, maybe that is a cop out, but I really hope that they wouldn't be so rude to give you a present that they KNOW was unwelcome.

Take Care,
Tracey

DiamondInTheRough · 03-03-2006, 04:51 PM

I feel like it is time that you sat your family down and really expressed who you are, and what you believe in. I get the impression from this, and some of your other posts, that they really don't know you are Pagan. You can't expect them to pick up on 'clues' (as obvious as they may be.)

I know it is hard to talk to family about believing in something different then they do. But it is part of who you are, and it effects your children. This is the life you have chosen for yourself, you should be prepared to defend it to your family. I know it should be a personal matter, but you are clearly offended by the books/dvds - and so a decision should be made.

If you still consider this too intimate a subject to openly discuss with them, then you'll probably need to shelve your feelings about the literature. If you do decide to talk about it, even if just briefly - then you are justified in the future to take issue with them, should they do it again.

It may not be easy, and I'm not sure how well they will receive it, considering they seem set in there ways. But at least it'll all be out in the open, and you can freely be who you are around them.

Take care!

Mimi L · 03-03-2006, 04:53 PM

I am a protestant christian, but as far as my specific denomination goes I am in the minority. People do sometimes try to impose their beliefs onto me and I do find it somewhat offensive. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I would never try to cram mine down someone's throat. I usually only discuss my faith and beliefs with people who show interest in learning about it. Was the book given a children's christian book? If so, maybe it was just an oversight and they relative giving it didn't think about it. If you don't think it was an oversight my suggestion would be to have your children give it to one of their christian friends. Then explain to the offending relative that you appreciate the thought but it didn't coincide with your beliefs and then let them know that you passed it on to someone who could use it. My guess is that you won't be getting any more surprise books.

GabrielsMom · 03-03-2006, 05:05 PM

I grew up in a Christian household and many of the things I got in school or from other people were offensive to our beliefs. My parents made sure to screen things for us, including TV shows, books, and music. They were always watching out for what was influencing us. I think that this is something that all parents need to do, no matter what your beliefs are. If I were in a similar situation, I would return the book and say "thanks but no thanks." And then, whether they intentionally did this or not, your point is made.

CelticSpirit · 03-03-2006, 10:17 PM

You know, I would be offended if someone in my family did that to me. Yes, I'm Catholic, but if a relative sneaked my kids something that was anti-religion (something my in-laws WOULD do) or something that was for another religion when they KNOW we are Catholic, I would have some major issues with it.

I would confront them and say, "Look, I understand that you think you're doing the right thing, but it's offensive. I'm raising my children the way I feel is right. If you can't respect that, then leave us alone."

Good luck with this, hun. Let us know what happens.

2QTKat · 03-04-2006, 01:36 AM

HI Pollysis!! I am slightly confused on why the book bothered you so much when you said you are raising your children to be openminded, and they go to a christian based school so they are exposed to christian materials often. I hope this wasn't done out of trying to cause strife, cause that would be wrong no matter what faith you are! I applaud you on raising your children Open minded, one of the greatest gifts my mom gave to me was not putting any religous titles on me and when I was an adult I made my own decision by my own research! Good luck and much love to you!!

Adoption Momma · 03-04-2006, 03:48 AM

I am a christian and was raised in a very conservative protestant home (my grandfather is a minister as well as my uncle). I am not ashamed of my relationship with my Heavenly Father. When I was younger and very involved with various ministries, I was naive and had an "in your face" approach to me (with good intentions, but we all know about good intentions).

Fast forward to present day. I do not go to church every Sunday. DH and I are in the process of adopting two beautiful boys who have been brain-washed by extreme fundamentalist christian grandparents (one of my sons fears the devil coming in physical form into his bedroom and setting him on fire if he is bad). I have a lot of de-programming to do with both of them. Because of this reason, church is not a priority right now in our home. My grandfather thinks it's his right to call his grown children and me (since he helped raise me) and chastise us if we don't live according to his values and beliefs. We argued this past weekend because he doesn't understand it's not his place to: questioned what we do or do not do, tell us how to raise our children, or force unsolicited advice on me. In his opinion, all children should be in church every Sunday, no exceptions. If I took my kids to church every Sunday, it would just confuse them more. I have to be extremely careful on what my mom says and does because she is similar to my grandpa in a "down your throat" type thing. I've heard her tell many children (not mine), "Be careful, Jesus is watching you." I had to be very blunt and threatening with her about what she said and did around my children.

I share all of this because yes, the book could have been an accident, especially since you haven't "formally" told your family about your beliefs. But also, they could suspect your beliefs and feel like it is their responsibility to teach your kids about christianity. Whether or not I agree with your beliefs, I respect you as a person. Regardless of the subject matter, too many people self-impose themselves to "step in" when they think others are not "doing their jobs as parents".

You have several options. One - You could use this as an opportunity to speak to your relatives about your beliefs - "I really appreciate the books and DVDs you gave the kids. Since I've never talked with you about my beliefs, you unintentionally gave them a book which goes against our beliefs......"

Option 2 - Donate it to one of the christian schools or a library.

Option 3 - Keep it in case one of your children wants to read it for educational purposes.

Sorry this is so long, but people forcing their beliefs/ideas on somebody else just gets my blood boiling. RESPECT is a huge issue for me right now. Unless I knew without a doubt the gift was acceptable (i.e. previous knowledge of a book or DVD series, it was the theme on an invitation, etc) I would always run something of a religious matter by a parent before purchasing it or at the very least before giving it to the child.

Br@ndy · 03-04-2006, 03:57 AM

I really think religion and gifts don't mix well. You also have to keep in mind that some churches, especially christian tell their patrons to spread the word no matter what so they think they are doing good when they really aren't. I would suggest that you ask them to clear any gifts with you next time. Or just ask that they not be religious based.

We are not a typical religion here in the us either, but we are raising our son to be open minded too. We screen everything given to him because once a well meaning aut sent him a tape that talked about hell. It was hard to explain to a crying five year old why people would burn forever. After that I drew the line. Good luck with this!

deblynnc · 03-04-2006, 06:28 AM

I also wondered, as did Mimi, if it was just included innocently in a big stack of things for the kids or if they were trying to influence your children's religious beliefs in an underhanded way.

If you think it might have been innocent on their part, you could follow any one (or more) of Tina's options: talking to them about it, donating it, or keeping it.

If you really think they were trying to undermine your training of your children, then it is time to have a frank discussion with them. Whether or not you want to discuss your beliefs with them, you could tell them you appreciate their concern for your children's religious practices and beliefs, but that in the future they should run any such materials by you.

If someone gave my daughter a book or DVD about a different religion, I would use it as an opportunity to talk to her about the different belief systems in the world, if she were old enough for such a discussion, and leave it up to her if she wanted to know more about it. I would tell her "I believe...., but you are old enough to make up your own mind." If she were too young to really absorb the information and process it, I would not let her have it until she was more mature.

Debbie

mtm71401 · 03-07-2006, 03:14 AM

I really and sincerely hope that your family didn't send that book as a way of pushing their beliefs. I agree with the idea to donate the book to someone else. This also may be a chance to open the lines of communication with family about your beliefs. It's hard to honor someone's beliefs if you don't know what they are. If this is like a grandmother or grandfather (someone very old) it may not be worth it as they may be very entrenched in their idea of right and wrong.
I, myself, am a Christian. My sister is a pagan/witch. I know that telling your family really puts you out there for ridicule, but maybe they are not as closed minded as you think. It was very hard for my sister to share her beliefs with us. Once she did the learning began. My mother has gone with my sister to many classes and she and I have had many learning conversations. We were raised Church of Christ (very conservative Christians). Love is a very important part of both of our beliefs and so we find common ground. But because she has shared her beliefs with us, we know that sending a "Christian" book would not be the best thing to do. You know your family. You know if this is worth the discussion.

snowbunny · 03-07-2006, 03:40 AM

It doesn't need to be a big deal: your family, your choices and that's that.

I'd return it to them with a note requesting no more Christian propaganda.

While I'm all for sharing beliefs, and will raise Solas in an open household, if the gift bothered you, you should return it to them and request they not send anymore. Returning it doesn't mean your rejecting open-mindedness, just rejecting the tools they're using.

lissadell · 03-07-2006, 11:03 PM

We're not Christian, but most of our relatives are. I'm amazed we actually haven't actually received any Christian materials for DS. But then, he's only four months old, so I guess there's lots and lots of time for those kinds of gifts.

In my case, I'd let the gift-givers know that we're planning to teach our son about religion - and that we want him to have a broad perspective on traditions so he can choose, or not choose, his own spiritual path. While we'll introduce him to some Christian thought and traditions, we'd prefer to handle that ourselves; so they can feel free to offer or suggest materials to us and we'll consider sharing them with DS. Then, I'd make the decision to keep, return or possibly donate the books, depending on the content.

I know your situation is a little different, but wanted to share what I would (and probably will someday) do.

I too struggle with the presumption some people make that everyone believes what they believe - or should believe what they believe.

AndreaInHouston · 03-07-2006, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PollySis

I know my relatives probably have guessed my beliefs, vaguely, simply from the hundreds of books in our living room, maybe sometimes some of my jewellery, the fact they know the gist of some of the stuff I write. Maybe my kids have let slip something, too, I dunno...

I couldn't help finding this offensive and upsetting, despite knowing the spirit it was intended.

...

Three of my other sons are at/went to Church of England (protestant) primary schools and the Headteacher of my oldest son's school is an ordained vicar in the C of E. So it's not like my kids don't get constantly exposed to christian culture as it is. (The church school is not just the easiest option either - it's two villages away so I didn't just send them there because it was the nearest school. It costs me a fortune in petrol, when they could just walk to the ordinary non church school in our own village!)

I'm trying to think about where your relatives are coming from...
If, for example, my sister sent my nieces to a Christian school (which I knew was a sacrifice for her to send them to) AND she used to teach at a Catholic school, I probably wouldn't *guess* she was a practicing Pagan who would be offended by my giving a Christian book along with all of the other books I sent.
If you haven't had a discussion with them, they may really feel like they're just encouraging your children with their "religious studies" that they are already getting at school.
Honestly, I would HOPE they weren't giving your children material they knew you disapproved of. If they are, then that's certainly something you need to discuss with them!