A few ?'s for my Muslim cysters from a Christian cyster

Bethany · 07-16-2007, 12:04 PM

I had a few ?'s if you don't mind responding.

Is there a cyster here who wears a burka?
If so, how do you feel about it? Is it uncomfortable? Is it really hot?
Do you wear it by choice? If so, why do you feel it is necessary?
Do you feel like you are missing out on a personal connection when you speak to others in public? Do people treat you badly?

I see the occasional woman wearing a burka here in Canada & my initial reaction is to feel bad for her, the impression being that she must have been forced to wear it b/c who would choose that for herself?

I see tons of women wearing hijabs & I understand the hijab. It's just the extremity of the burka that feels a little strange to me.

Are there any Muslim cysters who don't wear anything, not even the hijab? If so, do you feel that you are not following your religion as strictly as you should, or do you believe it is not necessary to wear the hijab? If you believe it's not necessary, why not?

I hope these questions don't sound ignorant. I am sincerely trying to understand, not trying to be rude.

TIA

sunnier · 07-16-2007, 01:32 PM

Hi Elizabeth,
I do not wear the hijab right now, but it is something i would like to do sooner than later, i guess fear is holding back right now, as that is a big step to take, to stand out and be different from others. May God give me the strength to take that step in the near future.

however that being said it is a requirement of religion, bascially the whole concept of hijab and burka is to guard your modesty and beauty as it should only be for your own husband and not strange men to look or gawk at you.

as for the burka, i think most women who do wear it here in Canada, i think they do it by their own choice, back in the middle east it might be the law there.

hope this helps with some of questions you had.

take care

Aishah · 07-16-2007, 05:54 PM

Hello!
I wear the headscarf everyday and have for the past 4 years. I wear the niqab (face veil/burka) basically everywhere but work (I train people for their jobs for a living - if I wore it 24/7 they'd let me go or demote me

)

I feel absolutely protected by it. I definitely feel good when wearing it. The only time I find it uncomfortable is when you eat in public. It's a tricky situation

. I wear it by choice - I am a born and raised Canadian girl (Scottish roots though) and I converted to Islam 4 years ago. I put on the hijab before I was married (about 3 years ago). My husband is pretty neutural about the issue. If I wear the niqab, he is happy, if I don't, he's fine with that too.

I wear it because, as I am sure you are aware, a complete law system (much like Jewish law I guess you could say - all rulings derived from our holy book). Basically, amongst scholars there are two major opinions about the face veil.

1. That it is a commandment and that all women must do it
2. That it is highly recommended (a Sunnah)

To be very honest, it is a matter of interpretation.

For example, there are two verses in the Quran that talk about the female covering. The one most discussed is:

وَقُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَائِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَاءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَائِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَاءِ بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي أَخَوَاتِهِنَّ أَوْ نِسَائِهِنَّ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُنَّ أَوِ التَّابِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُوْلِي الإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَى عَوْرَاتِ النِسَاء وَلاَ يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا
يُخْفِينَ مِنْ زِينَتِهِنَّ وَتُوبُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ جَمِيعاً أَيُّهَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women…”

This is one interpretation, the other is this:

“Likewise enjoin the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; not to display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; let them draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their fathers-in-law, their own sons, their stepsons, their own brothers, their nephews on either brothers’ or sisters’ sides, their own womenfolk,…”

The first interpretation is much more in depth into the Arabic language. the second kind of takes it at face value (neither is necessarily wrong, just one is clearly more researched by Arabic linguists).

Also, there are many narrations of the life of the Prophet and his companions that show the women of the time wore the full veil:

Narrated by Aisha: When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. And when the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over themselves" was revealed, the women of Ansar (The original women of Medina) came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.
(Abu Dawood)

“Narrated Safiya bint Shaib, Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.”

“Narrated 'Aisha, the Prophet (peace be upon him) used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized.”

“Narrated Aisha: who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah. When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces.”

...and there are many more. However, there are some narrations of the younger women covering all but the face and hands (to be fair, there is a question of authenticity of the narrations based on the credibility of the marrators, but I am no scholar, and want to leave it at that...LOL)

My opinion is that of the second, that hijab is obligatory, and theat the face veil is highly recommended. Although I think if you ask me on another day, my opinion would change (i never really am sure I guess).

My plan is to wear it full time one day, most likely when I am off on maternity (if I ever get past TTC to actually conceiving, ughh).

I have done extensive research on the topic, so if you ever want more detailed info (like what women wore in Arabia VS what Isalm revealed, more detail about the Arabic lingustics, proofs for either opinion, etc), just let me know hun.

I hope this helped!

Aishah · 07-16-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bethany

I had a few ?'s if you don't mind responding.

Is there a cyster here who wears a burka?
If so, how do you feel about it? Is it uncomfortable? Is it really hot?
Do you wear it by choice? If so, why do you feel it is necessary?
Do you feel like you are missing out on a personal connection when you speak to others in public? Do people treat you badly?

Oh, and to better answer the rest of your q's:

Not really hot, just on humid days.
Yes I wear it by choice (whole first response goes into why and why i feel it is necessary

)
Do I feel I am missing out on a personal connection? No, because most times people can not concentrate on anything but what I am saying, so convos become deeper. Plus, if there are no men around, I'll lift it - not an issue for my cysters!

Do people treat me badly? Sometimes, and sometimes people make me laugh. Like I have even heard people say 'Hey! Come look over here! She cant see or hear you!" Even though my eyes were uncovered and I can clearly hear...LOL

Some people dont understand and dont want to - I guess thats their right. But wearing it is my right, so leave me be and I'll leave you be.

Again, if you ever meed any more info, let me know.

moroccan_teagirl · 07-17-2007, 05:57 PM

I converted to Islam about 12yrs. ago and started out wearing hijab but was taught by women who wore the full veil (burka). I was never pressured by them to evn think about wearing it, I just asked them why they wore full veil and they told me. I started to investigate on my on a few years later and was really searching for a way to improve my piety and devotion to God. By reading what the Qur'an said, religious scholars and Hadith (teachings of the Prophet Muhammed-blessings be upon him) say, showed me how we as believing women are to be in modesty and dress.

I started wearing full veil/burka/niqab 6 yrs ago but had to take it off this year to go back to work. I work at the airport and you know how the atmosphere is there. With all the security, the fear of another "event", they woud never allow me to wear it there but I do wear my hijab and cover everything else. I can't tell you how much I miss wearing full veil.

I can't wait til I stop working in the next few months and I can finally go back to it!

Please, you don't have to feel sorry for us! Women who wear it, choose to wear the veil and are not forced by our husbands or family to wear it like some people think. It is a big misconception held by sooo many people. A lot of people think I converted because my husband is Muslim; like I am a mindless sheep and have no brains of my own. People always point to Saudia, Afghanistan or Iran as where oppressed women are wearing the veil. While it is true that these governments require that the women cover (which is against Islam--Islam is about free will not force), some do not want to wear it but most women will tell you they would never give it up even if they had the choice. The media likes to blow things out of proportion because they don't know different, so don't believe everything you see covered on the BBC or any other programme. People see this stuff and feel so sorry for us because they think we a re oppressed, living in a cage at home with no free will and living under our husband's thumb! LOL! They tell a little bit of truth and then fabricate a lot of the rest because they just don't know anything else.

I wear it because I wanted to find a way to feel closer to God and more modest for myself and my husband's sake. Our religion has guidelines about modesty in dress and they are very important. Nowadays, no clothes are modest anymore. There are more ways to dress and be uncovered than there are to be covered! You can wear hijab and a jilbab (a outer coat you wear over your clothes) and that is the minimum that you can wear to be covered and that is fine. Many, many Muslims wear that and there is nothing wrong or against Islam with that but for some of us, we prefer the guidelines of the maximum end. The maximum end of the spectrum is covering the face, hands, feet and eyes from being seen in public. Many people, especially women seem to think it is a 'Man' thing. It is so much more than that. We believe that our beauty, our charms and sensuality is for our husband's eyes only. Men are very visual and you know how they behave! You hear them describing women in such intimate details with their friends about which body parts they like from some women they saw walk by, etc. Let's not forget the porno industry is made for MEN and they make it a multi-billion dollar a year dynasty. While wearing full veil, you can't see any of our body at all. There is nothing to whistle at, describe to buddies, etc. The other reasons are that it is a physical reminder that you have a spiritual connection with God, that wearing it reminds you how you should behave in public; in modesty, in behaviour, and in speech. When I wear it, I feel free, more confident and protected. I don't have to worry that when I go out, that so-and-so has on the same jacket and pants as me and she looks better or trying to find a suitable outfit and makeup to put on just to step outside my home. I can just get dressed and leave all that behind (not look like a slob I mean, LOL, but I don't have to impress anybody!). Aslo, when I talk to people, I get direct communication. Meaninng, from the men, I get straight information; not looking at my chest instead of my face or whatever and from women, no competitive looks. You know that we as women are competitive. We don't really dress up for men as much as to out do or look good to each other! LOL! I am so glad to be free of that.

Here in the U.S, you can imagine what it must be like to wear full veil. Some people make fun, call us names or even shout dumb things. Especially, now with the war in Iraq and me, living in Texas; the most prideful-gun toting-bible belt-patriotic-flag waving-truck driving-vengeful state in all the land! LOL! I have had people say things every now and again but not a lot. Most people don't say anything to me directly but a few will laugh within earshot or will stop to stare at me with their mouths open or some actually talk to me and ask me about wearing full veil. The hispanics and Mexican say I am a ninja or they call me a ghost (I don't underestand the logic of that one). Yes, it can be a bit hot depending on where you live. Here in Texas, Ugggghh!!! But in weqring these clothes, you learn to be smart about it. You choose fabrics that breathe well and wick away moisture, you make sure that most places you go, you won't be outside very long and where you go has A/C (which is everywhere in Texas or everybody'd die! lol!), you go out at cooler times during the day or evening to do your shopping and whatever, and most of us really don't go out as much as we used to, etc. You learn to adapt and make it part of your life.

I really don't care what people call me or think of me. I do this for God, myself and my husband, to remind me of spiritual matters not earthly ones, to remind me that life with God after death is more than this physical life now. I pray that I will be blessed in the hereafter for trying my best to live up to what God wants me to be and all the laughter, funny looks, shouts at me, calling me names, pitying looks or rude behaviour from others don't concern me. I don't understand why people feel threatened by us, WOMEN, for what we wear on our own bodies! I mean some people are really mad! why? *sigh* Some people say its terrorism. Hmmm......if thats the case they still have nothing to be concerned about. If they had brains and watched the news, they would realized that most all terrorist are MEN not women. And I really wish that all these know-it-all writers and media would stop trying to connect us with radical 'Wahabbi-ism' in Saudi Arabia.

Sorry! I just realized I talked way tooooo much! Anyway, that is why I wear it and my thoughts on it. I hope that it shed some light for you and you can realize you don't have to feel sorrow or pity for us. We decided on our own to wear full veil or decided with our spouses that we feel we want to but especially outside Muslim countries, we choose, no one chooses or forces us to do anything! We are more free than people think!

DiamondInTheRough · 07-17-2007, 07:20 PM

I'd also like to add that Muslim Men have a dress-code, too. While it isn't as obvious because they don't wear veils, or head scarves - they too are not allowed to wear tight/revealing/flashy clothing, and have certain limits on what can be shown publically on their bodies as well.

Bethany, your questions make me feel like you view hijab as something cumbersome. But I often wonder the same thing about non-Muslim women, (who many of which I assume are Christian or Catholic), when I see them dressed with loads of make-up, hair styled to the tee, and outfits to match.

I can't tell you how many times I walk through the mall and see women in ultra short clothing, constantly trying to pull their hemline down a little before it reveals "too much." Or the constant picking and proding at hair styles until they are just right, or the 'maybe it's maybelline' look so many strive for. I remember after I started wearing hijab, a lot of my coworkers at the time who were female would privately confide in me how much they admired it, and wished they had something similar in their life. I even remember a female customer look me in the eye and say (about herself) "I have no purpose in life..."

You see, for us it is much more then a dress code. It is our identity. I know I wouldn't dream of dressing any other way. In fact, I have nightmares, REGULARLY, about being out in public without it! lol

em6 · 07-17-2007, 07:53 PM

i had to smile the other day. i saw a woman in full black burka walking down the street with her husband.

clutching a large Agent Provocateur shopping bag.

that woman is not oppressed, she's way more liberated than i am!

the point that i think some people have trouble with is that, whilst, as you have said, you CHOOSE to wear what you wear, which is liberated and empowering and makes you feel better about yourself, and is a function of the place where you are blessed to live and thrive, there are places in the world where it is COMPULSORY or there are campaigns to MAKE IT compulsory. i can't help but feel that that is wrong. no one should be able to impose their will on others to that extent. that's the only issue i have with it. it's not the burka itself, it's the IMPOSITION of the burka.

Bethany · 07-18-2007, 03:02 AM

Thank you SO MUCH cysters for your replies!!!!

People are threatened by, & afraid of, things they don't understand, & I am ashamed to admit I was feeling a little bit this way, please forgive me.

It sounds terrible but b/c you can't see who is under a burka, some people might lose sight of the fact it's a regular human being with feelings under the material. I have never tried to smile at or talk to someone wearing a burka b/c I couldn't judge how they were reacting to me, or if they were even looking at me.

For me, I guess partly b/c I have no Muslim friends & not much contact with Muslim people in my everyday life, it was quite easy to believe things that are inaccurate. By "talking" to you ladies, who were kind enough to be open & honest with me, & patient enough to explain things through your eyes, I feel a connection with you, as women, as human beings.

I will no longer feel sorry for women who I see dressed this way in a free country.

I feel enlightened, thank you!!!!

ibcnuldu · 07-18-2007, 06:34 AM

I just want to throw something in. I am an American (of Eastern European and Mexican heritage) and I also wear hijab.

I know people stare and think things. But I find it so much better if people just ASK me instead of staring and assuming things. Usually most people are curious and I don't bite so ask away!

There are no stupid questions.
I live in Oklahoma and also get the occasional rude comment, but try not to let it bother me. And most people that know me know that I really do not get offended by anything.

To be honest, I don't find hijab that hot. Obviously I don't go running around outside when it's 95 out, but I guess I've gotten used to it or something.

DiamondInTheRough · 07-18-2007, 02:35 PM

Nobody should go running out when it's 95 - it's actually physically safer, and medically recommended to cover your skin out in the sun

Bethany · 07-18-2007, 11:41 PM

I know, I was thinking about that -- you won't have ANY wrinkles!!

DiamondInTheRough · 07-19-2007, 01:51 AM

Wrinkles? Ha! PCOS has taken care of that. With all the various treatments I've used for the 'unsightly hair' (esp on my face) - my skin is well on its way. Ugh. (I don't wear the burqa or niqab thoug, so my face is also exposed to the sun).

Sorry, slight off topic, lol!

ibcnuldu · 07-19-2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondInTheRough

Nobody should go running out when it's 95 - it's actually physically safer, and medically recommended to cover your skin out in the sun

It's weird though. Sometimes when I should be hot I'm not hot at all. But then when it's not really that hot I feel a little warm. lol It's like when it's borderline hot it bothers me more than when it's just hot. It's like I can't decide whether I'm hot or cold.

I'm 18 so no wrinkles yet, hopefully >.> I don't go looking for them.

Aishah · 07-26-2007, 12:15 PM

PollySis:

I have to be a bit honest here and tell you I am a little offended by your post. Its your opinion and you have every right, but you are basing a Muslim woman's way of life on two things: Your opinion (being a woman who has never seen the other side face to face) and your role as a medieval woman.

Firstly, the clothes that medieval woman wear are COMPLETELY different. Having put on the garb myself, I know that. There are many, many layers with uncomfortable, restrictive fabrics that even if it is light by itself, is heavy when it is put on all together. What Muslim women wear is usually a tee shirt or a tank top, and capris, pants, or a skirt under their abaya (proper name for the Muslimah dress), not layers and layers of undergarments! The abayas and hijabs themselves are made usually of Georgette, polyester or cotton, or a combination of them. Do you think that in the tempuratures the Middle East gets to, that they would make heavy abayas? of course not.

The fact that you say that Christian women were dressing modestly because a tradition 'mistakenly' made its way to Europe shows you havent studied the bible very well. I will point out only verses from the bible, and you can go from there.

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head"

1 Corrinthians 11:3-6

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God"

1 Timothy 2:9-10

I do respect and understand that you disagree with the hijab. You have every right to! But we also have the right to agree with it, and you should respect that. I converted to Islam 4 years ago - not because I got married, not because I had a Muslim boyfriend, neither my father nor my mother is Muslim - I did it because I did the research. I big part of that research was of course, the oneness of God, and I was also very interested in Women in Islam.

Women who wear hijab and do it willingly do it because Allah requires it and not because we are 'intimidated' by what a man might react like. True, there is a wisdom in hijab that does protect us from many sexual predators, and many sexual thoughts and passes by men. But in all honesty, we as women-kind should be offended and appauled at the way men act these days. Women in the west have fought for centuries for their rights of equality, yet they are still depicted as a sexual object, even a prize-winner to show off. That would make me feel disgusting and worthless. Now, having been in that situation, I can also understand that it can feel empowering to be in a postion where anyone would want to show you off. Its true - I admit it. What I also realize is that those men don't often stick around as the 'novelty' wears off. And our beloved DH's get the short end of the stick - we get all dressed up every day for him when we are dating and maybe a year or two into the marriage. eventually, we just wear pj's with yesterday's make up, until we have to go out. Then we get dressed up for the world, not for him.

Islam tells you to do the opposite - be modest in the company of others, and put on make up and cute clothes for your DH. I have seen the difference it makes and he actually enjoys coming home.

We do not uncover in front of close male relatives to attract them - we do it because (in most cases) they love us unconditionally, regardless of what we look liek or not. They do not put an emphasis on what we look like, but on who we are. Where as when we go into public, whether we as women dress modestly or not, the emphasis is on what we do or do not look like. At my old job, I made presentations 24/7. I wore cute skirt and jacket outfits and trust me, I was never taken seriously. I put on hijab, and I now am at a new company, in a high managerial position and taken very seriously. No one has the choice bt to listen to you - they can't get distracted. I am the first one to say women are of the most beautiful creations on this here earth. I am also the first one to say that with every blessing comes a responsibility.

In that choice of responsibility, I find freedom. You may not think that because I wear a 'burka' or whatever. I feel protected, happy and in charge of my life when I wear it. As for the countries that require hijab or niqab (proper word for the face veil), they are Muslim countries, Hijab (and niqab in some opinions) is a requirement from Allah, a law. If you don't like it, then leave the country. When people are in that country or plan to go to it, they know the laws. It is not like Canada and the US in the way of everyone can do tehor own thing. for example, in most Muslim countries not everyone can get citizenship, even if they were born there. Even people who lived their whole lives in places like Saudi and Kuwait but their parents are not from there (bloodline wise), they can not be given citizenship. People know this so they take it or leave it. Plain and simple. Thats my 2 cents on that.

As for the turkish girl, I think she has the right to wear it. It is an Islamic principle, she is in an Islamic country, and should not be told not to. If we can freely wear it here in Canada and the US, non-muslim countries, we should have the right in our own countries. Same goes for her though, I applaud her for fighting because it is her right to wear it, but if she can't change the law, she has to move to a place that will allow her to practise Islam freely, it actually becomes fard (obligatory) on her.

Yes, men should be given laws and rules to abide by, and they have. Islam has rules for both men and women. See that beard they wear? Its their hijab. It is their resposibility to get married, give a dowry to his wife, support her and the family 100% financially, no if's and's or but's about it. Even if she works, that is her money, and if she spends it on the family, she gets the reward of charity in the afterlife. She is entitled to 1/2 off all of his earnings. He is required at all times in his life after puberty begins, to lower his gaze (as are women). It is said that in Islam the first look is forgiven, but the second isnt.

“Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts; that will make for greater purity for them. Indeed Allaah is well acquainted with all that they do.” [an-Nur (24):30]

Here is a good site on male hijab with evidences from the quran.
Here and here are good links about lowering the gaze
In fact, you can look at this site for reliable general info about what islam says.

I personally never found 'freedom' in the way we are here in the west. We are the most obese people in the world, there is some of the most serious drug abuse here, there are more reported non-war related rapes in North America than anywhere else in the world, I could go on. We have our own brnad of freedom in Islam and it comes with heavy responsibility as well. If you call it 'clever' that I have been 'taught' to think that way, but it was my own North American society that taught me to think that way, not a Muslim.

Bethany · 07-26-2007, 04:16 PM

Aishah:
Is your husband Muslim?