This is getting out of hand. (long, sorry)

Scoot · 01-05-2006, 01:13 PM

This began as a response in the "apathy" thread, but it ended up getting very long-winded and I didn't want to hijack the thread entirely. I feel like things are getting seriously out of control and don't know what to do about it anymore.

Apathy is arguably my biggest problem. If you ask me, it's the most awful symptom there is. I've been experiencing it since I was twelve years old. One day I woke up, and just couldn't bring myself to care about getting out of bed, or taking a shower, or going to school. Granted, no twelve-year-old bounds out of bed in the morning excited about school, but I didn't even want to go see my friends. I was a good student at the time, on the honor roll, on sports teams. But I just couldn't see a reason to do anything except lie there and do nothing that day. I'm sure I got out of bed that first morning and went to school, but over time that started happening more and more, I spiraled into a deep depression over it, and I quit school (and, arguably, "normal life") entirely by the time I was thirteen. I'm 20 now. The apathy comes in waves, really. Sometimes I'm functional, but usually I'm not. I'm in a particularly bad cycle right now, for example. I quit my last job (a good one which paid well, which I'd been at for two years) a few months ago after months of sitting there, in my cubicle, unable to bring myself to do my work, or to care about whether or not I was even getting paid. I have a few acquaintances, but no close friends since I find it difficult to relate to anybody deeply. I usually can't bring myself to put out the effort to see them, either. I sleep about 16 hours a day, and have extreme difficulty motivating myself to clean my house, take care of my pets, floss my teeth, shave - normal, routine tasks which allow people to "stay on top of things." I've put on 40 pounds in the last couple of years, and as a result the PCOS/IR symptoms are out of control. And as a result of THAT, my love life is non-existent. I have difficulty separating the apathy from the depression, or the depression from the physical symptoms. It's a chicken-and-egg situation in which it's hard for me to tell which came first. Some rare days I get into "good" moods, where I think to myself, "Okay, this is it. I'm really going to make an effort to change. I'm really going to try my hardest this time!" And I am really able to work myself into a happy, positive mood - for a little while. But within a few hours, or a few days, or a few weeks at best, I'm feeling down about things again, and then angry at myself for "failing" to boot. I hate the cycle. I haven't felt suicidal in years, which I suppose is a good thing, but really, is the prospect of spending the rest of my life face-down in my bed that much better? I have seen three psychiatrists in my lifetime. One wanted to put me on several types of medication after just the second visit. The next fell asleep during our sessions. The third told me there was "nothing wrong" with me. And I can't afford to see another one, being that I'm broke and without any health insurance. My primary care physician told me she didn't know of anyplace where I could get counseling inexpensively when I asked, and then shoved a packet of Effexor into my hand after meeting me for the FIRST TIME. Her words: "This won't make everything better. But it'll make you care less." Personally, I believe we're an overmedicated society, and I have absolutely no desire to feel any more numb than I already do. Not to mention the fact that it really bothered me that she tried to push meds on me without even really getting to know me. I like her, because she is the first doctor to ever take my hormonal issues seriously (hey, we're making some headway, eh?) , but jeez. I'm paranoid about medications, also, and I don't want to start taking something and then have to watch a 60 Minutes special some years down the road about how that drug caused people to die, you know? My mother, who I live with, doesn't believe in depression, or PCOS, or anything that she doesn't have. It's "all in my head" and I am "making up excuses to be lazy."

So, I guess my question (apart from the ranting) is, is there anybody who has felt/is feeling similar? I mean, I know there must be. There's always somebody on these boards who can relate to anything that's brought up. I guess I'm just looking for a little understanding, other perspectives, maybe some ideas on how others force themselves to "get things done," and how to deal with loved ones who think you're full of crap. Thanks for listening

mom_of_3_boys · 01-05-2006, 03:57 PM

((HUGS)) I am so sorry you are feeling that way. Theirs gotta be somewhere you can go for free or discounted help. If you don't feel like you need meds, and want to try alternate therapies, than you definitely need to find a Dr. who agrees with you, otherwise you might always find them trying to shove pills in your face. Please keep us posted on how you do. Don't give up, if you ever want someone to talk to you can just send me a message. I know sometimes we find ourselves in these dark places and no matter which way you turn you don't see the exit sign. Their is a happier life meant for you!

IsabelleGrace · 01-06-2006, 03:04 AM

{{Hugs}} I am sorry you are having to contend with this. I've felt apathetic, maybe from hopelessness, before. It has never persisted though like your's seems to be doing. It must be so distressing and doubly so with your mom being negative about all that you are going through. Could it be stemming from untreated depression and/or anxiety?

Is there perhaps a county health department where you live? In my county, the health department offers services at reduced rates to those in need in my area. Please try to reach out once again to find someone to help you.

nicole47 · 01-06-2006, 05:28 AM

One of the questions they ask when diagnosing depression is, "Have you lost interest in things that you used to find pleasurable" Apathy can definitely be a part of depression.

If you're in Chicago, there ARE places you can get sliding scale or free counseling, maybe in exchange for participating in studies. I know many of my high school friends (I went to a public boarding school) went places in the suburbs. A good place to start would be looking up the universities and research hospitals in the area and seeing if they have teaching clinics attached to them that work on depression. Here's an example of a clinical trial: http://www.centerwatch.com/patient/s.../stu34899.html ... there are a lot of others as well (look up clinical trial chicago depression in google).

I don't know if cognitive behavioral therapy would be of use to you, but that type of treatment is generally unmedicated (and very well studied-- it's very scientific). Some drugs are known to be safer and used more long term than others, so you may want to research those aspects of medication as well. If you have a chemical imbalance that is treatable, it's probably best to treat it so long as it can be done safely (one example, if you have a thyroid problem causing your depression).

When your apathy is manageable, you can break out of it by breaking up tasks into smaller tasks and then just do them one at a time. But I urge you to seek further help-- and better psychiatrists!!! Sometimes it takes a lot of shopping to find someone that works well with you.

sleepydumpling · 01-06-2006, 11:38 AM

Apathy has been a huge factor in my depression, that's for sure. It's one of the things my counsellor has helped me work on.

Is there an Employee Assistance Programme (EAP) through your work or studies that will get you started on some counselling? That's how I go - I could never afford it but we have an EAP at work that gets me several visits per year, and I can get that extended if need be.

Hope this helps!

dkarssen79 · 01-09-2006, 01:32 AM

I'm sorry you are going through this. But honestly sitting here reading your post it sounds surprisingly familier. After I graduated high school I started gaining weight and having other symptoms of pcos. I was just diagnosed in March 2004. After high school I did slowly lose interest in doing things. I quit spending time with my friends and all I would do is go to work and go home. My dh would try to get me to go out and do things or go out with my friends but I had not desire. I would even avoid people so that I didn't have to talk to anyone. If my friends would call I just woudln't answer my phone. I would always find excuses to just stay home. Finally after I was diagnosed and started met things started to get better. I can't believe the way I avoided my friends, most of which I haven't talked to in years. I was doing so much better with this and actually finally have made new friends which I actually spend time with, talk to etc. After being on met for 4 months I became pregnant and the whole time I was pregnant and even up until my dd was about 6 months old I felt great. I was back to being my regular social self. But for the past month or so I have gained 20 pounds and all of my symptoms are back. I've really been struggling with leaving the house and going out to do anything. The past couple of weeks have been a struggle just getting out of bed. I have no choice, though I have an 8 month old that relys on me to care for her. Not to mention I have to work, we couldn't afford things on just dh's salary. So that's basically the only things that keep me going. I didn't even realize this was a problem. I just thought it was how I was, antisocial. And I thought the not being able to get out of bed was just the depression that was coming back with the other symptoms. I couldn't ever figure out what happened to me. In school I had lots of friends and was always involved in lots of activities. I had no idea what was wrong with me after school. I never even realized the time this started happening was about the same time I started having the symptoms of pcos. Sorry this is so long, but I am relieved to find there is someone else out there that feels like I do and it's not just how I am. I am so glad I found this website, I have learned so much and now have much more info to take when I go see an endo. Right now I am not on any medications and I feel the same way you do, I don't want to be on medications so that I feel numb. But I do need something to help me with these symptoms.

I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you, but I can say I know how you feel. I'm greatful to you for posting this, because I really had no idea this was a problem. I hope things get better for you and you can find some place to get treatment. Good luck to you and thanks again for posting this!!!!

ABumpyGal · 01-10-2006, 06:23 AM

Wow, with a few changes what you wrote could have been my biography at your age. So yes, I do indeed relate!

Mine hit me a little later than you, and I quit school at 16. Same story about being a good student and whatnot up until then. That summer I felt better and went to summer school to make up the credits I missed and began school again the next year as a senior with my class. I only made it a few months and I quit again. Same reasons: I just couldn't move, every little motion felt like a huge effort, I slept for goodness knows how many hours (until my mother would forcefully drag me out of bed), and I just wanted to lie in bed and not even acknowledge the rest of the world. The only thing that did keep me going in any capacity at all was my boyfriend and social life outside of school, but even that would suffer greatly.

I would also work at a job until it would "hit me again" and I would just be unable to go to work, just like school. I'd take some months off, vegetating, until I could repeat the process all over again.

I also know all about just not having it in you to do even normal things one normally just does, like brushing one's teeth, shaving, washing my hair, etc.

In fact, I'm going through all of that right now and it has a diagnosis. Just like many other times and with many other doctors I have been diagnosed with Clinical Depression. What you described so perfectly are my main depressive symptoms. When I was younger I used to get weepy and suicidal, but as I grew into my twenties a lot of the emotional component became more subtle. I'd become a bit more negative, I'd be quicker to see situations as hopeless, or see myself as helpless. Sometimes I even get strange ones where I get angry and irritable. I no longer get suicidal. I just lose all motivation, all interest in life or my normal interests, sleep a lot, and feel as if I am moving through a waist high pool of molasses.

My depressions are part of my bipolar disorder, which is why they come back so frequently and run in cycles. I started having small hypomanias at around your age where I would suddenly feel pretty darned great! I'd get impulsive, especially with money. I'd set all sorts of goals and clean my room from top to bottom, sometimes over and over. I'd have a hard time sleeping during those times and sometimes would only sleep a couple hours a night, tops. As I got older, the hypomanias worsened to the point where I was going months on 15 minutes of lying down each morning and no real sleep. More common were the week or two sleepless episodes. I mention all this because cyclic depression is often an early sign of bipolar disorder. For most folks, the depressions come first and then years later comes the hypomania or mania. If you ever start experiencing symptoms like those I described, it's VERY important that you see a doctor right away. Trust me!

Can you drag yourself through all this? Yes, you can. I'll admit that I find medication helpful though, even though I might not use it every episode. It doesn't make me "not care" about things at all. While each medication is different and affects each person differently, everyone I've known who has taken antidepressants basically just notice themselves slowly feeling better. More motivated, more interested in life again, things become easier to do again, that kind of thing. I still feel the whole range of emotions while on antidepressants, but my sadness doesn't cut quite as deep as I still am prone to becoming very sad over normal things anyone would get sad about, say, the death of a pet, but for me it will be far more intense and last longer than your average person. Antidepressants do keep me from getting that "low".

How does one drag themselves through it? Sadly I have no real tricks for that, other than the one Nicole suggested about breaking large projects into smaller, more manageable jobs. That's great for housework! Other than that, you just have to do it and keep doing it, because as soon as you start to give in and stay home, don't brush your teeth, etc. it will tend to spiral back down again. Look for things you can eliminate that take energy, like how I stopped wearing makeup unless I'm going out on a special occasion. The one thing you have to keep in mind at all times is that you can and will do whatever it is you have to do and just keep forcing yourself. I won't lie, it sucks. Bad. But for most people depressive episodes last a few months at the most and that makes it a bit easier as you can keep telling yourself it will be over eventually. I'll admit that the fact that what you have going on lasts so long I worry if their may be a medical cause like low thyroid, as someone mentioned.

How do you convince other that things such as PCOS really exist? Well, some people just won't listen no matter what you do or say. I'm sure you've already tried the easier stuff such as showing her books, pamplets, whatever you can get her to read. At that point the person has been presented with evidence of PCOS' existence and if they continue to deny it, well they are probably doing it as it suits some purpose for them to do so. I'm so sorry that she's saying hurtful things like calling you "lazy". My own mother used to do that when I was your age as well. It wasn't until recent years when she's been around and has seen me trying so hard to do things that she has any respect for what I go through with depression. The fact that your mother is calling you "lazy" doesn't sound like she's going to be teachable, unless perhaps how I got my mother to understand my HS and depression would work on your mother. My mother actually thought my Hidradenitis Suppurativa was "zits on my boob". So I became so angry one day I whipped out the boob that had a huge bump on it that had kept me home from work and showed it to her. Showed her the lemon sized, angry red lump on my breast AND some of the scars for good measure. She was horrified and has had sympathy for me in regards to it since. Perhaps a similar approach would work with the PCOS, if you haven't already tried, and show her all the things we normally work so hard to hide. Tell her every intimate, painful detail about it and it's symptoms. It might not be as graphically "in your face" as my HS was with my mother, but my mother also learned to understand my depression by seeing me cry and lean on a bedpost in utter exhaustion while I was getting dressed one day. You'd be surprised what little things finally get things through to their brain!

Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to let you know that you weren't alone AT ALL and to do my best to answer your questions. I hope you can find a doctor that will listen to you. Have you tried calling your local Department of Social Services and asking them if there are any programs available for the destitute mentally ill. Yes, sadly you have to use such stark terminology with government folks sometimes or they might misunderstand your situation and what you are asking. Most counties have something, and I hope yours does as well and that they can help you sort this out once and for all.

I'm so sorry that you've felt this way for this long. My heart goes out to you!
Dana

Scoot · 01-10-2006, 07:05 PM

Wow, everybody has been so terribly sweet. Thanks for the support, ladies.

ABumpyGal, I've gotta say, holy crap, you're right - our stories are nearly identical. Right down to the quitting school and going back (I quit school in mid-8th grade for the first time, but by the next fall, I was feeling more ambitious and decided to apply to high school and got in! My grade-school principal, bless her, lied to my high school for me and told them I had graduated like everybody else because she said she didn't want to see me waste my potential). Also, the manic house-cleaning - I'm right there with ya! In fact, I'm on the up-swing at this very moment. I woke up at 4:30 this morning, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and I've been doing dishes, laundry, all that ever since. I'm totally familiar with the cycles, and there's no doubt in my mind that I have clinical depression AT THE VERY LEAST, and probably more like bipolar disorder nowadays. My father's a diagnosed bipolar, so I don't doubt I am too. My sister is on Zoloft, and I've always found that funny since she never felt half as bad as I have. She's never had issues with depression or anything, but her doctor put her on it because she has some weird lung problems which are exacerbated by stress. She's gained a lot of weight since beginning the medication, though, and she says it makes her sex drive absolutely nil, which of course scares me. My mother thinks we're all nuts and I don't think I'll ever be able to change her mind. I'll be looking into local options for some sort of counseling again.

kim_r · 01-11-2006, 01:17 AM

Hi Zoot,
I was told I have PCOS yesterday and I also suffer from depression. I can relate to the total apathy, high / lows, feeling like you just cant go to work (have taken a sick day today in fact), depression about weight, life the universe and everything. I have also had two operations for kidney reflux so basically a new body would be great thanks.

What I have learnt so far is that a) doctors / specialists generally have no idea. Most of what you can do for yourself are from things you learn about yourself, eg - keep pushing, see different people, ask lots of questions and dont be afraid to acknowledge that sometimes, they just dont know so try someone else.

b) Depression and medication? well the depression mediction i have taken throughout my life leaves me feeling numb. Once I had to go back to the docs as after four days of taking something I was convinced that my heart and lungs would just stop because they lacked the will to keep going! A little too numb for my liking. You mentioned being perscribed Effexor - I recon this is the new fad drug just like prozac was in the 90's. I was placed on effexor last year and whilst I didnt have the highs and lows to the same degree, i also didnt care about much. One day I decided that I would stop taking the drug as I couldnt see any real benefit. Thats when I learned that the drugs that work on the chemical imbalances of your brain (seretonine etc) are directly linked to the flight/fight responses controlled by your stomach which also produce or use the same chemical as the brain - adrenal and bowel responses. I kid you not - I had massive stomach cramps for two days - couldnt sleep, cramping, bloated to the point i felt my stomach would explode. http://www.prozactruth.com/effexor.htm

c) They are still researching and discovering how inter-related parts f the body are to each other. I even found a research document that talks about PCOS and links to depression and a sobering thought of how depression is also an early indicator of Alzheimers and how both are related to insulin resistance. http://pcos.insulitelabs.com/PCOS-an...-Disorders.php

d) Right now what i can tell you is that I am angry. Angry at the medical profession that we all place so much trust in to 'fix us', angry at mysef - did I cause this? Angry at everything i guess. I have found no answers for the following - does depression leads to weight gain or weight gain lead to depression. What is the cause of PCOS? - If there is no answer then why am i made to feel like its my fault for the weight portion - but everything else - excessive hair, acne, etc is trigged hormornally, and further to that, depression or bi-polar type moods are a seperate unrelated condition. it took so long to diagnose as I have regular really heavy periods, so much so that i am sure i have enough monthly menses to cover for a few other PCOS sufferers who do not have any or only irregular periods. i have never actively tried to get pregnant so i didnt present infertitility problems. Most docs, male of female assume monthly periods = female bits ok.

Its ok thought, the anger will subside and the apathy, depression will return. Or maybe I will be lucky and have on of my rare balanced days, go to work be a good citizen or even - a rare high day when I will exercise, eat right and actually feel good for the day.

in the mean time i might just go back to bed...
take care, kim.