Laser is NOT PERMANENT

MSmithNYC · 09-18-2003, 01:04 PM

I am very distressed to see some of the posting on this site are so filled with misinformation. I am 33 years old and have been struggling with PCOS and excess hair growth for since I was diagnosed at 18. My search has led me to try many silly things and do a lot of research. It also led me to change careers and become an Electrologist. I felt that as a fellow Cyster, I had a unique perspective.

The facts are out there if you just do a little research. The FDA specifically states that Laser hair removal is not permanent. They are only allowed to advertise as "Permanent Hair Reduction" because the hair grows back!! After you have spent thousands of dollars and are still shaving every day, your laser operator will remind you that the results are not guaranteed and that it must not work on you because of your skin type or your hormone problems. Let me save you some time and money, laser doesn't work! It may reduce the overall amount of hair but even that will only be short-term.

Before we give someone the chance to scar or burn our skin, we should all be doing a little research. We are a society that is very focussed on quick fixes. Electrolysis is a lengthy process but I can tell you from experience that it does work and it is PERMANENT.

Here are a couple of websites that will help you in your research:

FDA Policy on Laser: http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/laserfacts.html

Electrology Association: www.Electrology.com

SarahJ · 09-18-2003, 02:01 PM

I did regular electrolysis for many years, ultimately with no reduction in hair growth. In fact, it got worse.

I tried laser hair removal as a last resort and found it excruciatingly painful, but it quickly removed all my facial hair and I was able to manage for a long time (several years) by just tweezing strays.

Once I get my nerve up and my finances in order, I plan on doing a round of laser again. It may not be permanent, but its been the only effective treatment for me so far.

Sarah

the_lioness · 09-19-2003, 12:15 PM

my 2 pennyworth .... I have been extremely distressed by facial hair since 18 yrs old ...HAS BEEN very thick corase and BLACK.... now I am 30 yrs old...I got laser done 2 sittings only yet but I am amazed and so so happy with my face...

I had given up looking at my face I was so sick of the hair nd of people looking not at me but at my chin and sideburns.But laser hair removal has given me a new life !!!

I must add here that it is now only that I got my hormones a bit under control - have been on Metformin and aldactone and drugs + laser have worked wonders for me.

Those who can - I would definitely advise them to try it ... maybe get a test patch done and see how it goes....and then take it from there...

Best of luck to all ...lots of love....

cmgagnon · 09-19-2003, 11:02 PM

I had 5 sessions of laser hair "reduction" and for me personally, it did not work. It appeared to be working, which is why I kept going. It is actually worse in some areas, and I'm giving electrolysis a shot now. As you can see from my post "HELP!!!" I just had my first appointment and my face is all bumpy. I'm searching here to see if anyone else had that problem after electrolysis. It's been 5 1/2 hours since my treatment and the bumps are still there!!

JillyBug · 09-20-2003, 10:43 PM

I just had my 2nd round of laser last Tuesday. From the beginning I was told that it may not work because of PCOS. They gave me a HUGE discount on the treatments because there is no guarantee. I had tried everything short of laser and electroylosis. Laser was a chance I am willing to take.

so confused · 09-21-2003, 06:35 AM

A friend of mine (who also has pcos) has had laser to remove the facial hair and it worked, after years of pain and embarassment she is now smooth and hair free, but the technician told her that since she has pcos, if she doesn't manage her hormones it may grow back... so now she is focusing on hormone control.

I'm definitely no expert, but this makes sense. Most (I'm sure not all) women with facial hair have some sort of hormone problem, because women aren't supposed to have full-grown beards, etc. (if we were, then ALL women would have full-grown beards and, although unsightly, it would be at least considered "normal" instead of "circus side-show freakish")... In fact, excess hair growth is one of the signs of "wacky" hormones... I understand that all women have some degree of hair, but there is a difference between a little fuzz and a full-grown, thick, coarse, dark beard.

That being said, a woman can go for a zillion laser or electrology sessions, end up destroying all the hairs and looking nice and hair-free and being happy with the results... but if she doesn't focus on fixing up the hormone problems those hair-free results may only be temporary and the hair may eventually grow back because the "wacky" hormones (i.e. androgens) will trigger the hair follicles again, causing new hair to grow back.

Honestly, in regards to laser (which is newer technology) there have not been enough studies done to truly say whether or not it is permanent, but I see no reason why the hair should grow back if your hormones are "normal" and the patient undergoes enough treatments as needed to nuke all the hair and all the phases of regrowth. All things considered, hair tends to be stubborn and we have to keep in mind that all hair goes through different phases. A lot of people are impatient and may give up too soon before achieving true results, rendering their experience as useless. Some people give up too soon because they don't realize that the regrowth that they see may or may not be the same hair that was treated during previous sessions, and they may think it's a waste of money so they give up.

Perhaps this is the same reason (those pesky hormones again) why some women who undergo electrolysis have a happy hair-free ending and why others continue to go for countless sessions until their dedication, commitment, optimism and/or bank account is drained (whichever comes first)... Has there been enough testing on electrolysis to definitively state that it is permanent hair removal for all kinds of women no matter what illness she may have (i.e. hormone problems such as pcos)?????? I understand that electrolysis has been around a lot longer than laser, and therefore has had more studies done with the conclusion that the hair removal is permanent. Great!! But just who was in those studies? Men? Women? Both? Ages? Weight? etc.. Was there a woman with PCOS? Do they have enough detailed studies on a woman with pcos or other hormonal problems to truly state that it is in fact permanent?? If there are such studies, please send them my way.

Until the day that they have done a zillion studies on all aspects of both technologies and they can honestly conclude that results are permanent regardless of why you have that hair in the first place, I think it's safe to assume that some hair may come back. So your best weapon is trying to arm yourself with knowledge. Learn all you can before you commit to the practice. Perhaps the best thing to do is to keep a close eye on the hormones and try to correlate the results of the hair removal sessions to the results of the hormone tests and adjust accordingly. And then let's see if maybe we can't be some of those lucky people with the happy hair-free endings!!...

To MSmithNYC: You say that you are appalled by all the misleading information about lasers being permanent... but I think it is misleading for you to state "before you give someone the chance to burn or scar your skin..." because that is implying that it is not possible for an electrologist to do the same or that all laser technicians will burn or scar you... (*Consumers please remember, any device is only as good as the technician behind it, and mishaps can happen in either fields. It all depends on who you entrust with your situation. Also, as consumers, we have to keep in mind that either field will tell you negative things about the other field (i.e. it is "not permanent", too costly, or as MSmithNYC has just proved to us by saying that the technician may burn or scar your skin) and when it comes down to it, it is all about $ and making a sale.)* As a fellow pcoser you should have more sympathy. Also, you say that you find all this information about lasers being permanent misleading, but all the information here is posted by fellow pcosers, through their hard work at researching (and I quote: "the facts are out there if you do a little research"... all fellow pcosers can do is research, because that is all we can do, I urge you to go through some posts on any of these forums and see the incredible amounts of links and research these women do and share with the rest of us) or their dedication to their own laser "experience".. these women have no profit to gain from letting others know of their findings... but you (as a professional electrologist) do because it is how you earn your bread!! none of these women are selling anything or promoting their practice or industry... I am not saying that electrolysis doesn't work or is a bad thing, but I think you should give people more credit and don't be so quick to negate an entire industry. Your post is completely invalid in my opinion because you have no research to state that laser is not permanent. It is too new a field to judge that, and it is too soon to tell. Have you conducted any studies on laser yourself? Please let us know of your findings... True: the FDA doesn't allow laser manufacturers to advertise as permanent hair removal but only as permanent hair reduction.. because the technology is new, and although it is deemed safe for consumers, there have not been sufficient long-term studies done to render it permanent, although it may (or may not) very well be permanent. Also, you rant and rave about electrolysis, and you are an electrologist, so get off your soap box and why not give us some more useful info, example have you undergone electrolysis yourself? where? how long did it take? are you experienced in treating women with pcos, what areas of the body, what were the results, how long did it take etc etc. Oh and one more thing, since you like to undermine an entire industry and are simultaneously experienced in and rave about electrology, I ask you.. how do you explain all the people that have undergone years upon years of electrology sessions with reputable technicians (and i know a few of these people myself) and all to no avail.. the hair is still there??? You state that it is permanent, but how come these people have not found that permanent relief from the hair???

MSmithNYC you're from my own city and oh how you've let me down!!

Didn't mean to offend anyone.. this was just my 4 cents (adjusted for inflation)

nobimbo · 09-21-2003, 08:46 AM

Very well said, Soconfused!

I had electrolysis about 20 years ago for two years on my face, and the hair just kept growing back. The electrolygist finally referred me to an endo, and that's how I got my PCOS (Stein Leventhal back then) diagnosis. I have had two laser treatments and am very pleased with my progress so far. And the other two things I love about it is: 1) I don't have to grow the hair out before treatment; in fact shaving beforehand is required and (before electrolysis you have to grow the hair out) 2) The treatments are over in just a few minutes (electrolysis lasted a painful hour at least).

Although the older laser machines have horror stories associated with them (scarring, etc.) the newer ones are gentle and safe. And there are a couple of the newer machines that are, in fact, approved by the FDA for permanent hair removal (Lightsheer Diode for one, which is the one I am using).

I have a question for anyone who might have an answer. They say that we women with PCOS have to have our hormones under control or the hair will just grow back. However, men get laser treatments all the time for their beards, backs, chests, etc. Won't the male androgens cause their hair to grow back? Also, women get laser treatments for the legs and underarms. In those areas, the hair growth isn't caused by androgens, since all women have hair growth in those areas. Why doesn't the hair grow back in those places after laser, if whatever hormones that do contribute to "normal" hair growth are still in place? Just something I've been pondering.

Linda

so confused · 09-21-2003, 09:32 AM

Hey Linda,

Good questions!!

While I don't have an answer for your first question (maybe it's attributed to the hormonal make up of a male or maybe it has something to do with the levels of their hormones as well, like maybe if they have excess androgens (like we pcosers) they get it back, but since all men and women have a certain level of both male and female hormones that is considered "normal", and since things as beards and chest hair is normal on a man then perhaps that is why they may have better success with treating that hair than us pcosers who have those beards and chest hairs because our male hormones are abnormal, while theirs is there just because it's supposed to be, those same androgens that grow male beards are normal androgens, while the ones that grow a woman's are the abnormal excess ones.. honestly I have no clue, I'm sure someone will chime in with a better answer), my friend (the one with pcos who has had successful laser) gave me the answer to your second question a while back actually (but wouldn't ya know it I forgot exactly what she said, I'll have to ask her again) which you already kinda answered yourself lol but it was something like the hormones that are responsible for such things as leg and underarm hair growth (not sure but aren't the hormones responsible for leg and underarm hair androgens? normal levels found in every woman fueled during puberty?) are normal because all women have these things but the hormones that are involved in growing facial or other unwanted hairs are the androgens that are categorized as excess. While laser can promise to permanently remove the ones on your legs and underarms (because these are fueled by any average woman's normal hormones) by damaging the follicles, they can't promise the same for facial hair etc. because of the excess androgens involved that grows the facial hair in the first place. Until those excess androgens are stabilized, that hair may just keep coming back. I'll have to ask my friend exactly how it goes next time I see her. Again, I'm not sure of the accuracy of this, as we don't really have any studies to conclude this yet.

JillyBug · 09-21-2003, 01:21 PM

Nobimbo - VERY GOOD QUESTION!! I have always wondered that. Why can they control/stop hair growth on a man who choses to become/live as a woman but they can't control it in women? Do the men use medication? If so, why can't the same medication be given to us????

so confused · 09-23-2003, 01:12 AM

Hey Nobimbo, do you have any info regarding the lasers that have been approved by the FDA for permanent hair removal, such as the names of the device, etc? If so, please send them my way.

Thanks!!!

nobimbo · 09-23-2003, 09:22 AM

6 lasers were cleared for "permanent hair reduction" in April 2001: Epilaser, E-2000, Lightsheer, Gentlelase, Apogee, and Coolglide

Although the term is hair reduction, not hair removal, that is meant that not all of the hair is removed in one session. Once a hair follicle is destroyed it cannot grow back. Since the hair grows in three different stages, it takes repeated sessions to removal all of the hair (laser is only effective during the active growth stage), and follow up sessions may be needed (but not necessarily) 6 months to a year later.

Here is a chart comparing the different lasers:

http://www.consumerbeware.com/l_comp.htm

Linda

Jllrdh · 09-24-2003, 02:37 AM

I just have to add my two cents to this thread. I used to have electrolysis done every week for around three years, for sideburns and the chin area. During my sessions, the hair did get better to manage, but it still grew back. I do blame my hormones since I didn't know that I had PCOS. Now many years later, I went in for another round of electrolysis. I don't know what I was thinking, it was painful, and I had tears in my eyes, I couldn't even get through five minutes. So my answer to this thread is very simple, when I get enough money together, I will be going to have it lasered, because electrolysis didn't work for me, plus its too painful to go through it again. And yes, I did go back to the same person who had done it years before, i can't blame her technique, just me being more of a wimp than I was when I was younger.
Jenny