I think it is a very interesting study. I had really hoped that nobody would have posted it due to a certain element who loves to jump on these stats as an excuse to beat up on the fatties.
However, as someone who is very overweight and ttc it is obviously a worrying trend. However, the numbers are still quite low. The problem I have is that obesity seems to be the one remaining thing people are allowed to be attacked for. I will leave it at that. The ttc journey is hard enough without making it even harder by letting the negative stuff in.
I think there are many reasons why women of all sizes die during childbirth. Not the least of which is a very serious midwife shortage. Someone, I work with had very serious complications following childbirth because she was left for several hours without being checked and nearly bled to death. She is a normal weight and up to that point had an uneventful pregnancy.
I have been so lucky in the care I have received for fertility in that I have managed to find a team of open minded professionals who realise not everyone fits in the same box!! I am trying to surround myself with positive energy so I will probably not post any further about this issue. Except to say Good Luck to all my bigger cysters in your ttc journey as well as your pregnancies.
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Have just seen the same report on the lunchtime news. They're saying it's not just the mother who's mortality risk is 4 - 5 times higher, but the baby's. I think it's one thing to risk your own life - another to risk a child's.
When I had my last son, (at a normal weight)I had a complication and was in an antenatal ward for nearly a month, until I delivered. Incidentally, had I been obese or super-obese, I could easily have died as they didn't do a scan - they're not routine so late in pregnancy - but just discovered baby was a transverse lie by feeling. I know it is hard to feel much at all if someone's got a big layer of fat, so I would have gone undiagnosed and had baby not turned, if I'd been obese, I wouldn't be here now typing this!
Baby was in a weird position which would have killed me if he tried to come that way - plus I had very fast labours so they didn't think I'd get in, in time. They stuck me in with a lot of elective caesarians and women just in for the day to be induced - which meant I saw tens of women in early labour and/or being delivered, during those 4 weeks - and all the very overweight women seemed to end up having caesars. I've no idea why. Whether it was lack of stamina during labour - which can be exhausting - general fitness levels or simply the medics taking over and trying to factor out risks, I've no idea.
I spent that last labour walking around and gave birth standing up as it's faster and easier - and the midwife was so great, she encouraged me to it with no drugs at all. I'd imagine if I'd been obese, it would be impossible to deliver standing up, and again, the minute they have you flat or your back, the process is medicalised and the woman in labour disempowered. Things slow down as your body doesn't naturally labour lying down and you end up being given all sorts of drugs to speed things up, etc and/or have the water membranes ruptured which in itself, can put yourself and baby at risk of infection if you then labour slowly. So again, maybe women are dying unecessarily because obesity leads to extra interventions.
The minute you introduce a 'problem' such as obesity or anything else, they do seem to medicalise the whole thing - I wonder if these are women having caesars, or going into normal labour? Would the higher number having caesars skew the statistics?
Either way, I wouldn't call having a 4-5 times higher risk of dying *small* and a 5 times higher risk of baby dying is not negligible. In terms of statistics, that's a significantly higher risk, so worth reducing, even if you only reduce it a little bit.
I'm glad they've highlighted it, for the sake of the babies. Whether the government will do something about it, is another matter. I think they should tax McDonalds etc out of existence, have a fat tax on unhealthy foods and subsidise organic and wholefoods, pay for gym memberships or encourage local walking schemes, etc. You can't berate women about their weight and then not help them. Rather than wasting NHS money on delivery beds for the super-obese, (which they showed on TV) they should be spending it on positively encouraging people to get healthy before they conceive.
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I spent that last labour walking around and gave birth standing up as it's faster and easier - and the midwife was so great, she encouraged me to it with no drugs at all. I'd imagine if I'd been obese, it would be impossible to deliver standing up, and again, the minute they have you flat or your back, the process is medicalised and the woman in labour disempowered. Things slow down as your body doesn't naturally labour lying down and you end up being given all sorts of drugs to speed things up, etc and/or have the water membranes ruptured which in itself, can put yourself and baby at risk of infection if you then labour slowly. So again, maybe women are dying unecessarily because obesity leads to extra interventions.
I just wanted to say that back in April I helped my friend delivery her baby girl at home with no meds at all....she also delivered standing (well half squatting!) ..... she was/is heaiver than I am - perhaps by at least a stone or so....
(I'm 14 stone btw)
I had a c-sections....not due to me being FAT at all.... due to me having a septum in my vagina..... and at the end of my pregnancy I and doctors/midwives could tell which end the head was just by feeling.... I was about 16 stone when I delivered so they were able to feel the babies position through my fat....
oh and one last fact.... I laboured for over 48 hours before having my c-section.... yes it was exhuasting but anymoreso that a thin person delivering? mmmm I reckon a thin person would have passed out well before I did...
I think there's a huge difference between someone being over weight and someone being unhealthy... what happened the statistics about what smokers do to their babies?? Totally our of choice that one whereas obesity is not always a choice.
Nyk
p.s. I didn't actually read the article yet... I will later.
That is it I am so done with this subject!! I would advise anyone wanting to argue the point Nyksta has done such a great job doing not to bother. It all just another pot stirrer situation by someone who for what ever reason likes being mean!!
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I saw this on GMTV this morning also. However, GMTV did also add that there were other risk factors which meant that the birth was more risky, for example, the age of the mother was one, and whether the mother smoked during pregnancy was another one.
I am against fat bashing, but if women who are heavier pose more risks during pregnancy then surely this is a fact not a "fatist" statement. These risks need to be managed to an acceptable level.
I have a high BMI and I am 32 weeks pregnant. I need the larger cuff to have my blood pressure measured. When I was pregnanct with my daughter, the midwife found it hard to palpate me (in response to Pollysis, ie. she couldnt feel the baby through my fat) so I was sent for a scan. They dont just blindly assume what position the baby is in because the cant feel it. Or they shouldnt do anyway. If they are making mistakes telling during fetal positioning then IMO this is something that needs to be addressed with more training. If the women is too fat then she should be sent for a scan.
I have been scanned every 4 weeks this pregnancy to check the babys growth. I have no idea what my fundal height is; its never been measured, as far as Im concerned its grossly inaccurate for obese women anyway.
Women who have a higher BMI have a higher chance of needing a c section... you cant just chooose you want a section; there has to be a medical reason for justifying it. Having a high BMI is not a valid reason to be having an elective section. I had a c section for my first baby due to her being breech, and I will be having a section (most likely) for this baby due to it being breech also. Nothing to do with my weight. 4% of babies are breech at term, and this figure is the same in slim and obese women.
BTW also any woman with a high BMI (in my area) is automatically referred under consultant care so they can keep an eye on them anyway.
I do agree that the only way to reverse this trend is to provide support for the women though. There is no point in telling people to lose weight and then not supporting them through the process. To be honest, I think this kind of attitude does more harm than good. 95% of people who diet and lose weight put it all back on again, usually with a few pounds extra. Whats the point of going through the whole circle of deprivation in the first place
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I think it is a very interesting study. I had really hoped that nobody would have posted it due to a certain element who loves to jump on these stats as an excuse to beat up on the fatties.
Honest I didn't post it to start an argument.... I could argue back with a certain person but I won't bother since I am not in an argumentative mood today and it's almost Christmas!
Good luck TTC, I wish you all the luck in the world! xxx
The article made interesting reading if not really telling people of the world there is a risk to anything if you are obese... tell us something we don’t know! It’s nice to read that a certain hospital mentioned are prepared with a bigger operating table! Yippeeeee – justice for chubbies!
Yes, I wondered if the figures aren't slightly skewed as obese women are more likely to have a C section, although that said I dunno if caesars are any more risky than normal births? In other words, would be interesting to see the figures broken down a bit more.
I think ANY aspect of a woman the medics can see as 'problematic' (not just obesity) can lead to over medicalisation, and the minute you take choices from women, they become overpowered by the process and the more that happens to them medically, the more that can go wrong - if that makes sense.
Nyksta, your friend sounds like she delivered fast if she was at home and so wouldn't have had the sort of 'medicalisation' of the process I'm talking about. Had she been in hospital, they'd probably have had so many monitors and so on, that she'd have ended up with labour slowed down and then be at more risk of caesar, or other problems. I was talking about women in hospital - as that's been my only direct experience.
There are obviously lots of factors involved in morbidity of mum or baby - but I think what the study means is that although everyone in the population shares some or most of those risks, a woman with a high BMI has risks 4-5 times more.
Whilst many (not all) of the other factors are things you're stuck with - over-medicalisation of the process, your age, infections in hospitals... obesity is something we can all be pro-active about.
Not saying we all need to be like Kate Moss - just that there is no reason to think we can't be pro-active with our own health. Heard on the radio that there was a recent study that looked at cancer risks re. diet etc and it concluded that whilst you're at much higher risk of developing certain cancers if you're obese, if you're overweight your risk is lower than that of someone with a BMI below 25. Benefits of losing even tiny amounts have to be good, eh?
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Yes, I wondered if the figures aren't slightly skewed as obese women are more likely to have a C section, although that said I dunno if caesars are any more risky than normal births?
Pollysis- a c section is only done to reduce the risk at birth. So the risk of a c section would be less than the risk of a normal birth if a c section is deemed necessary. Again, I repeat, you cant just choose to have one; it has to be medically necessary!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PollySis
Whilst many (not all) of the other factors are things you're stuck with - over-medicalisation of the process, your age, infections in hospitals... obesity is something we can all be pro-active about.
I'll remember that, thanks. I didnt just wake up one morning and decide to be fat you know. How about.. obesity could be due to a number of factors including metabolic and emotional ones... everybody knows the equation of calories in = calories out but sometimes even the most intelligent doctors dont understand why some people are prone to eating more than others and storing fat. If they knew the answer to that then they would be a millionaire.
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Lots of us on here have PCOS and have worked like mad to lose the weight! It's much much harder going for us but its NOT impossible! That's meant as a positive, pro-active message to give hope. I worked like a navvy at my exercise and diet often not seeing the scales shift downwards even a fraction of a lb. But I kept going as did a lot of us here! Please take that as it's meant - as a positive thing. When I came on this site and saw other women had done it - it encouraged me to try and it was the hardest thing I've done in my life. I've been through all the heartbreak of PCOS - including 3 miscarriages, so I don't think my PCOS was 'milder' than anyone else's. I also don't think anyone should think it's something you're stuck with. Whilst there's no 'cure' there's loads of things you can do to make yourself healthier. What I was saying was self evidently true: that we can't, as individuals, factor out say hospital borne infections. But we CAN change our health and therefore positively affect outcomes.
BTW, I also was not talking about elective casearians. In fact I mentioned several times that it depends on the consultant, not the woman.
You are not helpless and you canbe pro-active with your own fitness and weight issues. So a 'normal' woman would lose 2lb + a week with a really good diet and exercise regime? We can do the same - double it - and lose half lb. Does it matter? It's slower. But trust me - it ain't impossible!
If a newborn baby has a 5 times higher chance of not surviving because of the mum's weight, wouldn't it be logical to say that - given that information - you'd move heaven and earth to shift some of that weight before conceiving? It also bears out the dr's decisions re. BMI and prescription of Clomid we were talking about on the other thread. Now the NHS has this information, wouldn't they be pig-headed not to act on it?
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Allison-Believe me I never thought you posted this to start an arguement!! I do not wish to engage any further on this subject with a poster as I have found a more supportive place on the ttc board in which find comfort. I tried to pm you but for some reason couldn't, to tell you this. I know you are a lovely person who could never cause trouble.
My feelings about this are due to the usual element that seems to enjoy a good fat bash!! I am with you I will not be arguing any further my point, because I don't care what the "faction" thinks of me!! I know I am healthy and have a lovely husband who thinks I am beautiful and wants to make babies with me. I am rich in other ways and take pleasure in bringing support to my fellow cysters rather then bringing them to down. I thought that is what the board is all about.
Owlie-I do not believe saying obese women are higher risk is fat bashing. It is obvious being larger may cause extra problems. However, as you have experienced it is the ongoing tone and lack of support by some on this thread where I take issue.
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I have lost large amounts of weight several times over and I know how to lose weight. I know the theory, I know how to put it into practice. What Im saying is that, for whatever reason, I always always put it back on again, and usually more. And I have actually come to the conclusion that dieting and the attitudes towards it are more harmful than helpful. So if a consultant says "your fat, your baby is 6 times more likely to die because of that"... how helpful is that to a woman who is 8 months pregnant? Not very. In fact, in my experience, it would usually make whatever eating problems that they had worse.
And there we get to the crux of the problem. How many obese woman have normal eating patterns in the first place? Im guessing not many to get to that position in the first place. So IMO its a long journey to actually lose the weight and keep it off forever... to be honest Ive never met anybody thats been able to maintain a weight loss for 5 years +.
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Ah you haven't met me, then as I lost it after my third child and kept it off 6 years until I conceived another 2 babies in 19 mths, and all my gain was post those pregnancies. With me, there were no freaky eating patterns til I was breastfeeding then my weight would always rocket as it made me ravenous. (I know that's not what the government tell us, eh?) But yes I lost and maintained easily until I had 2 more babies.
I don't see how responding to this interesting news story is 'fat bashing'. The world would be a boring place if we all had the same opinions. I can see why the NHS has perameters and I'm glad this research has come out if it saves a single baby's life. If that opnions makes me a 'fat basher' well I can live with it. I just think I have an opinion that is as valid as anyone's. I have PCOS. I have been obese and I'm not exactly stick thin anymore, nor ever will be. I have had 8 babies - lost 3 so have been through this entire process and out the other end - why does that make my opinion invalid or is it just because we disagree? If I think people should be hopeFUL not helpLESS about their health, well isn't that positive? I'm saying you can do something positive. Who knows, that positivity may even help you conceive?
And sorry but I'm not particularly on this thread to 'support' anyone - nor should anyone be here for that reason. We all have the same condition so some empathy can be taken as read. But the function of this is to talk about a news story, not facilitate anything else. I'd have posted that link if someone else hadn't got there first as I thought it was very relevant to other discussions. I'm not going off on one and seeing this as an 'argument', though - ain't that immature to panic and run off the minute a discussion gets interesting? This is only a forum - a place to discuss. Not to blindly agree with everything everyone else says or spit the dummy if they disagree. I'll support anyone who wants it on PM, but on this thread let's discuss an interesting and really current news story.
As you've said, there's many other places on here apart from a news related thread where you can more usefully go for support.
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And there we get to the crux of the problem. How many obese woman have normal eating patterns in the first place? Im guessing not many to get to that position in the first place.
I beg to differ I was {and I’ve stated this before} normal weight as a child and didn’t eat the wrong food, I was an active swimmer in the towns swimming club most of my life, but when I hit 12 I stopped swimming because I got bored and the only activity I did was PE at school twice a week and walking to and from the bus stops to school, baring in mind I walked at least 40 minutes a day for that + a dog walk of about 20 minutes. I got more than sufficient exercise for a teen if not more.
However I gained weight, through no fault of my own. I didn’t eat the wrong food, chocolate, crisps and pop where never allowed in our house except as a treat once a month if I was good! My main meals always consisted of home cooked food, cooked healthy with veggies normally home grown from my granddad. {god rest his soul 12 yrs today since he died.}baring in mind my mother is naturally thin but on my fathers side there is an obesity problem, I also have more of my father traits than my mother. By the time I was 14 I was classed as obese weighing around 13 / 14 stone and at 16 I weighed about 16 stone. I will admit by the time I was 15 I use to eat junk food secretly binging and throwing up mainly brought on by the fact I was fat and I couldn’t explain why… so I comfort ate.
It’s clear to me now that I was indeed suffering with PCOS from around the age of 12 which caused the weight gain but no one even my own doctor bother to question it, instead by the ancient GP I use to have told me I was to go on a diet at the age of 13 despite that fact I was eating and exercising.
The fact I didn’t let the weight gain bother me until I perhaps hit going on 16 probably is why no one pushed to seek help for me, to my family I was active, bubbly, academic, not bullied and just a normal teen that had a weight problem.
I am not a dieter; I don’t believe in faddy rip off diet clubs. I eat well and I try to eat healthily where I can. I have developed type 2 diabetes over two years ago which was dx same time as PCOS but I am receiving poor care from the NHS {no surprise there} but I am shortly going to put my foot down with my GP and demand he switches me to insulin.
I’ve joined three gyms I find them boring and would prefer to walk the dog that waste money at a gym. Great if you like them for me there is nothing worse than being cooped up in a building smelling of sweaty bodies, give me a green park and fresh air any day of the week.
If people are happy to go to diet clubs then let them, who am I to argue, I have two friends who have both shed over 60lbs each this year and I am so pleased for them, I have lost over 40lbs this year which I am pleased with. If I gain it back so well and good, if I lose more then great, but I honestly don’t care either way.
Maternal Deaths Linked To Obesity 
I just think I have an opinion that is as valid as anyone's. I have PCOS. I have been obese and I'm not exactly stick thin anymore, nor ever will be. I have had 8 babies - lost 3 so have been through this entire process and out the other end - why does that make my opinion invalid or is it just because we disagree? If I think people should be hopeFUL not helpLESS about their health, well isn't that positive? I'm saying you can do something positive. Who knows, that positivity may even help you conceive?
