More Ukraine ?s for dna and other Ukraine parents

Louie · 12-22-2003, 07:57 PM

Hi again.

Well, I've been progressing with research on our Ukraine adoption and found a web site for people adopting from the Ukraine which seems helpful. The only problem is that there is a TON of conflicting information on there that has me wondering about a few things.

Some people talk about being shown a book of children, while others were only shown one folder at a time. How does it work? Isn't it better to see the whole folder?

Some people seem to be saying that there is a real issue with finding young children (under 2 and a half or so) who are healthy. Some people say they were only shown older children or children who had serious health issues. I hope to adopt a relatively healthy child in the 1-3 year old range and am wondering if this is going to be extremely hard. But then, there are others (here on our site and on this other site) who have adopted children as young as 14 months who are relaitvely healthy without difficulty.

I understand how children are kept for adoption nationally for one yr before becoming available internationally etc... and so on any given day there may or may not be many young/healthy children available. I also understand that there is varying demand and if you arrive at the same time as many other adopting parents, you have a lot of competition to see the same children. But there still seem to be a lot of unknowns.

Some people are saying that you should go through a well connected agency because these people get to see the children who are in greatest demand while those who adopt independently with a facilitator are only shown older children unless the facilitator is really good and well connected. I think I'd rather go through an agency, but isn't it a lot more money? I've heard that it runs around $14K to adopt independently... can anyone tell me what it costs generally through an agency? Would it be $20K or more?

Other people seem to be saying that it has nothing to do with private vs agency but rather with how determined you are and if you insist on seeing more and more children and ask more questions... you eventually are led to the child that meets your needs.

Independent looks easy enough from what I can tell... but will I be losing out on seeing the children that most closely match our needs etc.?

dna · 12-23-2003, 09:55 AM

Hi Louie

You have all the same questions we did, and to be honest everyones experience while in Ukraine is different. We were never shown the 'books of children' but while sitting in the Adoption Centres office we saw other families pouring over them. We were shown a healthy 15 month old boy right away and we said yes we want to see him and he just happened to be our forever child.
Unfortunatly with Ukraine there will always be conflicting information due to every experience being different and the Adoption Centre changed hands a few times very quickly and rules were changed.
Becuz of the 1 yr + 1 month + 1 Month rule in Ukraine there are always different kids coming up for adoption at different times. Keep in mind its from the date they "arrive" in the orphanage NOT from the date they are born, this is why some older kids come off the registry instead of when they are born.

I know nothing about agency vs. independent ... here in Ontario we are only allowed to go thru an agency, so I am no help to you in that department.

Also as far as I know (as long as the rules still apply) you will be given a referral for only ONE child and while that file is in your hand he is as good as yours until you say no...so dont feel pressured to make your decision that day or that minute. The likelihood of someone coming along behind you and adopting that child is great if you dont but while you have the referral you have the choice above all others.

I really hope I have answered some of your questions. Just remember it IS a different experience for everyone who adopts Ukraine becuz you dont get a referral sent to your door, you have to be in country and it depends on the day and what is happening at the Adoption Centre in terms of children coming off the registry.

(also something most people dont realize is that the orphanage is also run as a daycare of sorts throughout the week while parents are working and cannot care for the children, so you may see alot of children who appear healthy and well taken care of that are not adoptable)

Feel free to ask anything, I hope I also havent made it seem more scary ! It really is a good place to adopt from and the kids are priceless

Take care,
Amy

dna_ukrainefor1@yahoo.com

if you want to email me privately

Louie · 12-23-2003, 11:29 AM

Thanks Amy! Hearing about your experiences there is SO helpful to me. It helps just to know what to expect etc and get a better understanding of why there are so many conflicting stories out there. I suppose, if worse came to worse, I would just stay in Ukraine for weeks and wait until my forever child came along!

I have a couple of other questions too regarding health issues if you can help... Did it seem to you that most of the children were behind in weight and development to some extent? Is that something they will make up for in time once we get them home and well fed? I read about couples adopting 17 month old baby's who weighed only 15-20 lbs. I don't even know what a healthy weight is for a child that age, but this just sounds very small to me. Is low weight a sign of other health concerns or a sign that a particular baby house is neglectful etc. Or is this lower weight to be expected and nothing to worry about?

I read about a couple who went to see a 15 month old and hired an MD to go with them and they concluded that the baby was severely developmentally delayed and turned down the referral. Another couple was shown twins who were nearly two years old but the photos in the book were taken when they were 2 months. When they went to see the twins, they found them to be very impaired mentally & physically but could have never known from the photos they were shown.

What worries me is how you know whether a child that age is delayed or not. I doubt we would have the money to hire a MD to come with us and not sure if I know what to look for. Did you have an MD? Do they tell you honestly if a baby is developmentally delayed? It seems they do not, so is it up to us to be on the alert for out of date photos etc? Is it obvious when you see and play with the baby if there is a problem?

I also heard that some babies were considered "delayed" but are now considered above average in the US after propper care. It's all so confusing. From what I've been reading on the other site, going independent has its risks. I guess it can work perfectly if you hook up with the right facilitator. But if not, it seems you can fall through the cracks. I've located an agency that seems really good (lisa on our site recommended it) and will talk to them about costs and how "connected" they are etc.

dna · 12-23-2003, 02:57 PM

If you happen to go to a city where you will have internet access, I would hire a doctor in the States that you can send back pics and specs on the child...they may balk at this a bit in Ukraine but if it will ease your mind ..

There sometimes is a bit of info on the BM as well, ours was healthy this was her 5th pregnancy and I seriously doubt she had enough money to drink with 2 mouths at home to feed being single. Also she walked out of the hospital the next day after giving birth and never looked back. Our son was 6pds6ounces when born and followed an average growth pattern while in the orphanage. He was 20 pounds at 15 months and 78 cms tall... which seems small but he is now 26 pounds and hhhmm much much taller. It is true they do catch up and get so much bigger when you get them home. Its really really amazing.

The best thing you can do is educate yourself in regards to FAS FAE and other health issues...they mostly all have dry skin, upper respitory problems (orphanage cough is what I call it) and low iron (our DS did and there is no more evidence of any of it)
Pay close attention to the childs history when its given to you and dont let anyone bowl you over and take the child if you are not sure. Something as simple as a child with a lazy eye can be turned down several times but idealy if the child is otherwise healthy then go for it !

The orphanage conditions (at least ours) were simple but clean, and yes of course there were children there that were mentally and physically handicapped and these children will most likely remain there until they are tossed out to the streets at 13 ? or 16 I cant remember. Sad but true.

Educate yourself on average kids weight and height, ask your doctor for a growth chart for toddlers (we took one) ask for the circumfrence of head at birth (good indication of problems) we took a class on FAS and found it most informative and could almost pick out the kids that had it (although thats never a guarantee)

I guess my point is, instead of reading about the "what ifs etc" get yourself some books with facts and make an appointment with your doctor and talk about medical issues etc. Attend an FAS class, ask other parents what is "normal" with their 15 month old. Don't get yourself down with all the stories that are told. Alot of times thats why its better to go with an agency, becuz they can tell you what is going on in Ukraine right away. Instead of you finding out when you get there ? (I am not sure how independant works)

Anyways thats the basics...
Did I miss anything ?

Amy

Louie · 12-23-2003, 03:30 PM

Thanks so much... that helps a lot. It gets a bit overwheling, but I enjoy researching, so I should be up for the task. Sounds like a great idea to meet with a Dr and take FAS class. I will definitely do that! I'll also see if I can get a doc here to be available via email too. Thanks again. I feel better already.

dna · 12-23-2003, 04:56 PM

Anytime !!

I am always here to ask a question or two of

Glad to help

MicKen · 12-24-2003, 01:50 AM

I also adopted a little boy from Ukraine, but my experience is more dated.

We adopted in summer/fall '02, and were frankly terrified. We decided on Ukraine because we thought it would be a one trip program (and it usually was , at that time). That really was why we chose Ukraine over Russia. I also wanted to adopt from China, but was too young at the time (being 29).

We were totally willing to adopt a child up to age 6, and didn't care about gender. By the grace of GOD we adopted the most beautiful little guy, just 15 months. He had been relinquished at birth. No signs of anything FAS related (and I work with all kinds of children, the signs can be evident...no upper lip, flat nasal bridge, lack of the "crease" above the lip, almond eyes, etc...)..and, as the Ukraine system is, you don't get a referral until after you have gone the the National Adoption Center. We did look through the books, although, like DNA said, others don't. Every experience in Ukraine is so different.

When we saw our son for the first time, we fell in love!!!

Upon arriving home we did learn that he was pretty anemic, and had giardia ( a parasite you get from bad water).

I don't think it is easy to adopt from Ukraine, and we were there for over a month, but we enjoyed our time there, and found everyone to be friendly.

If we would adopt again (which we are not sure we can afford to yet as we are saving for our son's college...haha!), we might consider domestic. Only because we would not be in any hurry as we are SO HAPPY with our life with our son! If we have another, that is great! If not, we feel blessed beyond belief with the boy we have.

Please feel free to email me! My adoption story is older than DNA's, and the Ukraine system seems to change a lot, but I will try to help as best I can!

Michellle

email...Kendrick72@hotmail.com

MicKen · 12-24-2003, 02:11 AM

P.S...

The reason we are thinking if we adopt again to go domestic is because we are in no hurry (and I have a friend who has been waiting 5 years for a domestic adoption....and she is a well respected, relatively young teacher!)

And. it is not guaranteed one will adopt young chilldren from Ukraine. And we wouldn't want to disrupt birthorder (as our son is just 2 and a half).

Best wishes, and email me with questions!

Louie · 12-24-2003, 11:17 AM

Hi Michelle! I remember chatting with you about a year ago about Ukraine. Hearing about your positive experience back then helped me to decide on going with Ukraine.

Was your trip one month because of the 30 day waiting period by the courts that I've heard about? I keep hearing there is this waiting period and that it is sometimes waived, but supposedly only if the child has a medical need to attend to. Also, I hear there may be a trip to Warsaw Poland too... did you have to go there as well?

I am very nervous, but still feel it will be right for us. DH and I feel like we're about to walk through a mine field, but we are determined and the happy endings we see all around us (you and Amy and others) are keeping us hopeful.

If we can survive it, as you have, I know that we will be thrilled with our little one. DH's mom is Ukrainian too, and that will be a nice cultural link for us. And I know that we would easily fall in love with a 3 year old, should a 1-2 year old be unavailable.

I am considering asking my mother (with whom both me and DH are very close) to accompany us. She is very experienced with children and perhaps her added perspective would be good. Though I also don't want to complicate what needs to be a decision by me and DH alone. Do you think it would be a good idea to have the additional support? Would they allow the adoptive grandmother to meet with the child too, or do they only allow the parents to see them?

Best of luck with your next adoption should you decide to go for it. Given the circumstances, domestic does sound perfect for you now.

MicKen · 12-24-2003, 12:52 PM

I tried to PM you, but it said your box was full.

I don't know the answer to the question about your mother coming with you...I think it would depend upon the facilitator or orphanage as to whether or not they would allow her to see the child as well.

Our trip was a little over a month because we were there when there were major changes occurring, director leaving, etc. So, we were held up with all of that.

Yes, currently I believe you still have to go through Warwaw to get your child's visa. However, we loved Poland and would not have minded staying longer.

Have you heard of "Wide horizons for Children" in Massachussettes? I have heard that they have a good Ukrainian program,, but I don't know, I didn't use them. You should call and ask them.

Really, with all of the changes that have happened over the last year and a half, my adoption story is dated.

Do you know about the FRUA site and the yahoo one for Ukrainian adoption? They seem to be a wealth of information, but at the same time, I am kind of glad I didn't know about them before our adoption or I think I would have been scared off.

Best of luck to you, and keep us posted!

Louie · 12-29-2003, 07:56 PM

Hi Michelle and Amy.

I've been doing lots more research. I discovered that the FAS/FAE issue is a lot more prevelant than I thought. Supposedly, alcoholism is worse in the Ukraine than anywhere in the world. One out of five adults has a serious drinking problem and 30% of orphans are abandonned because of alcoholism. I also read that although FAS is easily identifyable, Fetal Alcohol Effect can be very hard to identify. Supposedly, there are no outward signs and you just have to look for growth delay and developmental delay.

This is NOT discouraging me from adopting there. I am committed to the Ukraine and believe that every country comes with its own unique obstacles. But I do want to know how best to navigate etc. I read that most babies/children in orphanages have SLIGHT delays in growth and development just because of the poor nutrition and lack of nurturing. But anything more severe may be a sign of FAE or other health problems. But determining what is slight and what's significant is pretty hard. I guess I will get the growth charts and developmental milsestones from a doc and go from there.

Which regions did you adopt from? I heard that there are 12 regions that are still effected by the chernobyl incident and may be prone to higher rates of childhood cancer and birth defects... should that be a real concern? Then there are a few other regions that are non-friendly to adoption and are supposedly ridden with delays and red tape. So, when I weed all these out, I am left with about 5-10 "good" regions from which to choose. But of course, I will just be lucky to find a child that meets my requests and can't be overly selective about the regions etc.

MicKen · 12-29-2003, 09:22 PM

Louie, bless your heart, I know what you are going through. As for FAE, I have read it may not show up until they are school age, and then there is no proof, you just deal with the symptoms.

I would be interested in where you read this info, i have not heard anything about Ukraine having a higher incidence of alcoholism.

We adopted from the Kiev region in Ukraine. But I have read that it may not matter what region, orphanges are different and what children they have available at any given time always differs.

I am wishing you the very best,l and I remember being right where you are...we came very close to switching to domestic or foster to adopt at the LAST minute...even while our dossier was already in Ukraine.

The irony is that I chose international adoption because I thought it would be easier.

I am honestly not so sure.

BUT, we are happier than we have ever been. We think our son is precious beyond words, and if he has problems with learning, whatever, in the future, he is still our precious son.

I also worried about the Cherynobyl incident, and have read that it mostly affected Belarus as the fall out seemingly traveled northwest (I think that is what I read).

One thing I have learned from our adoption experience is that it really all is a leap of faith. I used to think that adopting domestically was scarier, but I am not so sure now. We have to all worry about the health and prenatal care of the children we adopt.

PS...if you ever feel discouraged to adopt from a certain country, expand your choices and research. We switched countries three times. In fact, the country I felt very strongly about was China...it is the most dependable about the actual procedure, and the beautiful children!!! The ONLY reason we did not adopt from China was because I was too young at the time, and, if I waited til I turned 30, I may not have made the "quota" they set at that time. So it was too risky. Have you considered other countries?

dna · 12-30-2003, 10:49 AM

Our region is Cherkassy and lemme tell ya .. if you get an oportunity to adopt there GO ! The people were nothing but nice and its more like a city with McDonalds, internet Cafe, shopping for baby in the market and a fancier shoe/child place etc. We had no problems there at all.

re:Chernobyl a friend of mine adopted pretty much right around the corner in terms of Region and her child is absolutely perfect at 5 years of age now.
I also spoke to a doctor here, who said the best thing is to get the kids out of there...(and what Michelle said re:Belarus)

re: alcohol .. we were walking back to our apartment while in Cherkassy and we stopped at a corner store to get some soda and there was a man in there who bought one of those styrofoam cups (the ones you use for coffee) and in it was Vodka with a slice of orange to decorate....he DOWNED IT, sucked on the orange and walked away like it was water !!!!!! Dave and I stood there for like 5 minutes and watched him walk away !
:o tolerance is something I think over time we all build up to alcohol and it is VERY cheap so ....

Its an experience you will never forget, I am so glad we chose Ukraine, its so full of history and the people mostly are very nice (despite the no smiling no eye contact warnings) ..

but like Michelle, we wanted China first but were/am not 30 ! So we are going in a few years for our girl to complete our family

HTH,
Amy

Louie · 12-30-2003, 02:09 PM

Thanks so much, Michelle and Amy.... it is SO helpful to hear both of your stories and just to know others who've made it through all of this successfully.

I am opening my mind to considering other countries too, but DH is another story. I think he has the idea that if the child looked similar to us, it would not always be so easy to tell that he was adopted and so it would not become a constant question or issue. He seem to think that when people saw us together as a family, the first thing they would think it adoption and comments would be made etc. He would love a child of any race equally, but just doesn't want to be constantly asked or reminded about the fact that the child is not "ours" (as some unenlightened people may think/say). He wants to protect the child from this, from what other kids might say, as well as protect himself I suppose.

For me, I do not care what the race/ethnicity is... I do not care what others say or think. I would be interested in China, except I hear it is fairly expensive and a fairly long waiting period. I will be 36 soon, and DH is 38 and I guess we cannot deal with a wait of a yr or more. I have heard that Kaz babies are very healthy... no real FAS there because they are non-drinkers generally... I also read that they are a warm loving people in general and tend to be very affectionate and attentive with the orphan babies.

All this is good, but I think DH has his heart set on being able to meet the babies/children and have a choice (which is really only an option in Ukraine, I think). He is concerned about the FAS/FAE stuff... but feels it is worth the risk. He is also part Ukrainian and I think this brings it closer to his heart. Still, I am discussing Kaz with him, just to be sure that we make an informed decision.

Amy, your son is absolutely adorable! It's good to know that Kiev and Cherkassy are both good regions to go to. Michelle, I totally agree with what you said about FAE... if it turns up at some point, we will deal with that and of course love our child as much as ever. There are never any gaurantees in life for health etc, whether adopting or giving birth etc. I'm sure a lot of this is intuitive and just comes from your heart.

I got the info about alcoholism on the internet (major research out there on the issue)... I'll try to find it again and post it. Basically, the Ukrainian peasants were paid with Vodka at one point and this helped to engrain it into the culture. It's very sad. I also heard that many women are not aware of the dangers it can pose during pr and this is why so many are born with FAS/FAE. Still, there are obviously very many babies there who were not exposed to alcohol. It's important not to let the stuff I am reading scare me off... have to keep it all in perspective etc.

dna · 12-30-2003, 04:19 PM

We had family members who had minor issues with race etc....unfortunately its not their choice in the end and we will be a family with a Ukrainian and a Chinese child !
I wonder if we are the only ones ! LOL
And it IS for the most part easier to deal with other people when you have a child that looks like you. People can be very ignorant when asking questions about whether the baby is "yours" and "where did she come from" etc ! :o but we are willing and able to deal with all those questions (cuz I have a big ole mouth) LOL and we dont have issues and we can educate our children on how to deal as well....

Kaz was one of our choices, unfortunately here in Ontario we cant go there to adopt

Anyways, in the end the choice is yours and it will be the right one {{{{ hugs }}}} Amy