NEW Christian and a little bitter - Christian cysters HELP!

BonnieBee · 05-30-2005, 09:44 PM

Part of this is looking for advice from Christian cysters, and part of this is just letting off some steam instead of letting my anger build up towards God. (Since this is long I'm putting the most important stuff in bold, though I hope someone will read the whole thing).

Okay, I was raised Southern Baptist and so was my BF, but neither of us were practicing Christians when we met. (Ironically, we met at a church homecoming during which we both found the sermon offensive - "Muslims are evil! Harry Potter is wicked! Hellfire! Brimstone!" etc.) We have always enjoyed a close relationship and are deeply in love. As you can see in my sig, we've been together just over a year, and we consider ourselves to be lifelong partners and want to get married when we are older and out of college and such. Even when I wasn't a Christian I always believed in God (I was saved as a little girl so I suppose you could say I was never totally lost), I just didn't know His true nature. And there were always things that I knew God had specially put in my life for me. My BF was one of those things.

My BF and I have been sexually active from the beginning. We were both virgins when we met and, though most people may not believe this, we knew right away that this was going to be a long-term relationship.

Recently, however, we were separated through circumstances that neither of us had control over. I can't go into the details, but a crisis arose where I was actually afraid my BF might be murdered and I couldn't contact him to find out if he was okay. During this time, the only thing that kept me from losing my mind were the church services my mother always watches on TV. Particularly helpful were the cheerful, compassionate preachers like Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. I was struck by how clear the Bible is that God will not forsake his followers. I began praying to Jesus instead of just my vague idea of God, and there were several times when I could feel the Holy Spirit comfort me. My BF came out of the situation unharmed, which I consider to be a bona fide miracle of God. I was so thankful for this, that I rededicated my life to Christ and began attending church with my mother.

The problem, however, is this. First off, my BF is not a Christian, though his rejection of Christianity has more to do with Christians than with Jesus. He has been deeply wounded before by various people who claimed to be acting in accordance with Christian beliefs - people who claimed to be his friends just to get him to church, then never called him again, and even ex-girlfriends who broke his heart by leaving him because they became Christians. Naturally, his first reaction when I told him about my change in faith was to be afraid that I would do this too. I have finally convinced him that I won't, but I continue to be angered by "Christian" suggestions that I should leave the man I know God sent me and find a nice, clean-cut Christian man - doesn't matter who he is, just that he's a Christian. I fully resent this. I love people for who they are, not what they believe, and while I want my BF to get saved, I will NOT leave him just because "Christians and non-Christians don't mix". No offense to anyone who believes this, but I believe this is a load of self-righteous snobbery. Yes, I'm sure it's easier to maintain a relationship with someone who shares your faith, but breaking someone's heart in the name of Jesus? I don't think that's the image we want to spread of our Savior.

Also, I know the Bible says that you should only have sex with someone you are married to. But I feel like it would be wrong to suddenly cut my BF off from sex after a year of having a healthy sexual relationship. He didn't "sign up" for abstinence, and to be honest, neither did I. Abstinence can be a wonderful thing to couples who agree on it, but I just think suddenly deciding to withhold something you have always done, especially when he hasn't agreed to it, sends a message that is hurtful and cold.

I feel as though the damage isn't being done by my BF so much as by the Christian community that is putting so much pressure on ALL believers - even brand new ones who have a lot to change - to follow certain parts of the Bible more closely than others. I almost feel sometimes that the church is not following the Bible so much as it is conservative ideology about what "clean living" is. For example, my BF and I play Dungeons & Dragons - and if you actually bother to PLAY the game, you realize there is nothing inherently evil about it and in fact you can play the part of a morally-minded cleric. We also are fans of the Harry Potter series and several bands who are supposed to be "wicked" just because various Christian groups have branded them as such. I don't recall there being any commandments in the Bible to the effect of "Thou shalt not role-play" or "Thou shalt not listen to industrial rock".

I am not attacking anyone's ideas or saying these things are right for everyone - some people may not be comfortable with Harry Potter or D&D or whatever, and that's fine with them. But why should my BF and I be judged as wicked for having tastes that have more to do with being nerds than sinners, when there are Christians who spend all their free time gossiping and reading trashy romance novels (and then fantasize about how much greater the hero is than their husband), who do not show kindness to others, who are impatient with their children, or who overindulge themselves in food almost to the point of gluttony? Why are these traits not "condemned" - these people can show their face in church without being shamed in any way - but my choice to have sex with a man I love and am committed to is?

Please give me some answers here. I love God and am grateful for all He has done for me. I am just frustrated and confused by all the ideas of what makes a good Christian. It's hard when you're trying to learn basic Biblical principles and trying to learn how to pray more effectively, and you keep getting distracted by whether it's okay to watch this movie or whether homosexuals should be allowed to get married (my answer to that, by the way, is that I don't make the laws and it really isn't up to me anyway, so I'm not going to get bent out of shape over it no matter what my position is). I want to be a good Christian - but I've always been the type to color outside the lines, and if being a Christian has to mean wearing these clothes and listening to that type of music, my walk with God is going to be full of rebellion.

I wandered from the point here - my point was that I love my boyfriend and I don't want to have to take anything away from him. I've even prayed to God about whether I should stay with him, and God's answer seemed to be that there is no reason for me to leave him. God even promised me in church last week (I felt His presence so strongly I almost fell off the pew!) that if I would be patient, He would give BF and me a Christian life together - even though BF seems determined not to convert.

What do my more experienced Christian cysters say about this? Please give me your honest opinions, not just what you think the church "How to Counsel 101" pamphlet would tell you to say. I need honesty from my fellow Christians most of all, because the church I go to is very image conscious and I am scared to share this information with people I know in person while I am still getting to know them.

Pamela · 05-30-2005, 10:11 PM

BonnieBee, I read your whole post and will have to think about it a bit and get back to you.
My immediate thought is that you need find a new church where people are not so judgemental about you and your BF. That bothers me.
I'll write more later.
If you heard from God about your relationship, was it confirmed by others???

Pam

BonnieBee · 05-30-2005, 10:27 PM

I have yet to find a church around here that isn't judgmental. The problem is that I live in such a small town that the community is structured around the church, so what goes on Sunday at church can too easily become Monday morning's gossip. The pastor and his wife at our church are wonderful - and there are some wonderful people at my church too. The attitudes I keep running into have more to do with living in a small Southern town than with the church itself.

My mother also prayed about the relationship and said she didn't think God wanted me to leave my BF. And the counselor I spoke to when I went to the altar for assurance of salvation said to just pray and if I make changes in our relationship, to make them a little at a time. Other than that, I haven't spoken to anyone about it. I am too afraid of being judged before people really get to know me. (Further, since the people in my church DON'T know me well, I don't really feel it's any of their business.)

KatCarney · 05-30-2005, 10:27 PM

I'm probably not experienced or wise enough to offer counsel, but I wondering...

Do you believe that you are in the right church home? It has taken me a lifetime to find a place of worship that I feel comfortable in - both with the people and the leadership/messages.

ETA
LOL! Looks like we were posting at the same time...

Pamela · 05-30-2005, 10:50 PM

First of all, I'm happy to hear that you are attending church and deepening your walk with Christ. This is the most important thing.

There are many out there who will throw all these "you cant's" out there when you start attending. Be polite, listen, then go and pray about it. They don't have the power of judgement over you, He does. In the Gospels, do you hear Jesus condemn those who repent and turn towards him for all the OTHER sin in their lives? No, He graciously allows us to spiritually mature as we grow in Him. That means that:
-Some things we'll let go of when we get saved,
-Some things we'll 'work on' for a while, and
-Some things we'll struggle with for a long time.

What is He saying you need to work on now? If He has given you your BF as a husband, you need to be patient and loving while he works on HIM for a while!! Meanwhile, you pray, attend church, study the Bible and work on becoming the wife He would have you be.

Things are weird right now because you are more mature than him. I can't promise that the days to come won't be hard on you. Will he resent your faith? Probably. If you stop having sex, will it cause problems with him? Almost certainly. Could he leave you? Maybe. I don't know for sure, but from your description, the more faith you show and the more sin you back away from the worse it will be with him. You don't mind being dirty when everyone else is, but it feels bad to be dirty when those around you are clean!!

BUT, if your BF is the one God has for you, it will work out in the end.

I take it that marriage/engagement has not been discussed yet?

As for the sex thing, you will have to follow your heart on that one. There are reasons beyond "not hurting him" to abstain, at least until marriage, but you need to work that out together. It is a test for him too- will he respect you enough to wait?

I'll pray for you.
Pam

BonnieBee · 05-30-2005, 11:08 PM

We feel we are really too young to get engaged - I am 19 and BF is 18, and we feel we are too young to make such a decision. Every time we have mentioned marriage we have said that we want to get married one day and that neither of us could imagine marrying anyone else. We just don't feel ready to take that sort of step yet - and BF is currently employed only part time so he can't even afford a ring. We have sort of mutually agreed that we will get married - but that it is really too early for proposal and engagement. We still feel like teenagers in a lot of ways. I know others have gotten engaged and even married at our age, but we don't feel comfortable with it yet.

I really don't know the reasons for abstaining once you've already had sex with this person for a long time, other than "you're not supposed to have sex yet". Could you explain them?

I don't want to do things that will make it harder for BF in any way. He is currently at a point in life where literally everyone has turned against him except me. If I start making all these changes he will be hurt a lot deeper than just "I want to have sex and I can't." I don't want to "test" him. I don't feel that it is my right to do so (I am a little old-fashioned about relationships and I am personally uncomfortable, as a woman, telling my man that I will not have sex with him anymore. This is my attitude, not his.) And he is weak right now, he is at a hard time in his life (remember, his very life was in danger a few short weeks ago!) and the last thing he needs is me making changes to our relationship - the one solid thing he has in his life. I believe "testing" one's partner is disrespectful and unfair to them - the old "honey, does this look fat?" syndrome.

Also, having sex with BF doesn't make me feel "dirty". In my heart, I feel the same as if he were my husband, and I feel that sex is a beautiful expression of love between us.

Pamela · 05-30-2005, 11:51 PM

Love and sex are wonderful, in the right context. Right now you are enjoying things that you admit you are not mature or ready for- and these things can cause problems in your relationship. What if you get pregnant? Is it fair to you to expect nothing to change, even as so many things are changing in your own lives?

Your BF is a long term project for you AND for God.

I'd recommend getting some counseling from some people you trust. Couples counseling, mostly, if he'll go along, if he won't, just you.

And remember, if he's the one, he'll be there for you too.

Constance · 05-31-2005, 12:12 AM

Yesterday at bible study we discussed how we are faced with challenges in our lives. Our job is to pray to God of guidence and to give the out come to him. We may not see immediate changes, or answers but down the road we are like WOW! Look at what God did for us! Every step we take in life DH and i pray about it. DH does not go to church with me but is still a very God loving man.
This has grown with him over time. When we met he sounded much like your BF. At our wedding he told me he felt God all around us. He knew we had done what God had intended for us. His relationship has grown with God over the years. I would say do not presssure BF and just pray for him. Let God work on him with your support of prayer and watch in wonder at how God works.
As for the Church, Shop around. There has to be a non-denominational church some place near you. I attend the Community of Christ and we are a worldwide church. We study the scriptures, and Jesus life on earth. I have been to a SBC and was way turned off since i was going to hell for pretty much everything i did! Good luck

BonnieBee · 05-31-2005, 02:45 AM

Pamela, I appreciate your advice, and I appreciate that you're taking the time to try and help me. But I clearly said that I was not ready for marriage. Nowhere did I say I was not ready for sex. Marriage is something that involves a lot of money (even just for the ceremony), which I don't have. It is also something that if you do it at the wrong time can lead to DIVORCE which I do not want. Marriage has a lot to do with practicality - living arrangements and plans for children and stuff - as well as commitment. We've got the commitment part, but that isn't the whole picture.

Relationships are not about seeing how loyal you can force your partner to be against his will (not that he doesn't want to be loyal to me - but this would be putting him in a corner) or about saying "I have this new faith and you're going to do what I say because being religious makes me the one who is right". They are about love, trust, respect, and compromise. True love might "wait", but it DOESN'T manipulate.

The whole reason I made this post is to see if I could get a NEW perspective on this, not just the same old "do this because this is what Christians do". I am trying to find a way to worship God without feeling like a clone. If I'm going to feel like just any other clean person in a nice outfit married to a clean person in a nice suit with a nice little house and 2.5 kids, I would probably be more likely to find another faith that gives me a little freedom. I'm trying not to do that because I truly believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior which I initially thought was ALL that was required to be a Christian. Please remember that the whole reason I came back to Christ is because I love my boyfriend so dearly. And that God showed himself to me by protecting my boyfriend. I would have no problem with abstinence if it was something my boyfriend wanted as well, but this has to be a mutual choice, and if I were to even bring up the issue it would probably make him worry that the church is gradually trying to convince me to leave him - which, remember, other people have done to him before.

If this post sounds brash or in any way aggressive, it's mostly because it's 12:45am and I'm tired, so I may not be very tactful. Sorry.

KatCarney · 05-31-2005, 03:10 AM

Do you feel that if you stop having sex with your boyfriend that he will be hurt by this? (I'm just asking to get clarity on the situation...)

Also, it sounds like your boyfriend is dealing with a LOT in his life, right now. Is he getting any guidance and support from anyone? (besides you, of course

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieBee

If I'm going to feel like just any other clean person in a nice outfit married to a clean person in a nice suit with a nice little house and 2.5 kids, I would probably be more likely to find another faith that gives me a little freedom.

Specifically, what type of freedoms are you looking for?

BonnieBee · 05-31-2005, 03:42 AM

The freedom to have a personality of my own and choose my own activities and make some of my own decisions. I seem to have grown up with this idea that Christians are prescribed to dress a certain way (bright colors and expensive clothes and "fussy" hair), listen to certain music, live in certain types of houses, have certain parenting styles, even cook a certain way! It all feels very constraining and confusing. I want the freedom to wear black nail polish without people thinking I worship Satan, for example. And the freedom to choose my political beliefs based on how the country works and not on what my religion says (I may believe certain things, like abortion, should be LEGALLY allowed, even though I don't think they are MORALLY right, for example). The church doesn't come out and tell you who to vote for (usually), but there are strong suggestions from the Christian community. I guess I just feel like I always have - I love God, but I hate religion.

Yes, I feel that my boyfriend would be very hurt if we stopped having sex. Sex means a lot to our relationship - we don't just do it "because it's fun" or "because we're horny" - it's a very strong emotional bonding thing for us, and it makes us feel closer together. Moreover, I feel he would be offended by my making sudden changes to things that have been a part of our relationship since very early on. I think he would have every right to be upset if I suddenly went "I'm taking away part of our relationship, and you don't have any say in it".

He really doesn't have much of any support besides me - he doesn't have access to any right now. And besides that, he is slow to trust people and I am the only person he trusts, so there's really no one else he would go to for help.

heidioooo · 05-31-2005, 06:46 AM

I've read through all of your posts, and even though I'm a very lax christian (more spiritualist at the moment) I was raised in a family where my mom was christian and my dad was atheist.

from your posts it seems like you have already made up your mind about what you plan on doing, and if you love your bf and feel like he is the person you are meant to be with, then why does he have to be specifically "christian"? I truely do not believe that there are any hidden laws in the bible that require you to have relationships only within your denomination. Looking for a new church may be difficult, but it definately could help you find a more accepting congregation. hopefully there are some other churches in your town that are less concerned with the conservative christian image.
Although, since they don/t know you well, do they really need to know about your bf's spiritual journey? you both (and me too) are really at a time when you're just learning who you are and how you are going to implement your beliefs into life. He may come around in time, but everyone needs to find their own way.
As for sex, I have no idea where God really stands on the issue, I think it has been turned into a very negative thing by some sects, for married or unmarried couples. I mean, can't even thinking about sex be considerred a sin? If it is, then I guess every species ever is in trouble. Personally I think sex can be a beautiful expression of love, or even just an expression of human nature. If it doesn't interfere with your personal faith, and you don't find it to be something dirty or cheap, and you continue to have sex because YOU want to, then how can there be a problem. I don't know how much sense this makes, its almost 4 am, but thats my take on it.
good luck with your decisions and I'll be praying for you to have the guidance you need.

snowwhite · 05-31-2005, 03:19 PM

I read your posts and they hit close to home, alot of the things you said were words that came out of my mouth when I was your age. These are my views on the situation and thats are they are, my personal views and they may not be popular but here goes. To me, my relationship with God is a very personal one, I pray, I go to church, and I live my life the best I can. I don't know everything that God wants me to do and there is no possible way that I could ever know everything that is a sin and everything that isn't, and if someone tells you that they know everything to know about being a child of God my advise would be to run very fast very far. I would never assume to know exactly what God means or is thinking because only he is ultimate judge. I ask him for forgiveness for all of my sins and for constant clarity on how I should be living my life. Each persons relationship with God is a lifelong journey that grows and changes as life does. On the sex issue I have no idea from a religious standpoint what the right answer is but I do think that one should be ready to be a family and raise a child if they are having sex because no matter how careful you are there is always a possibility that a baby could happen. But again these are just my personal thoughts, good luck and best wishes.

BonnieBee · 05-31-2005, 03:27 PM

That's sort of my point Heidi... I don't understand why sex with my BF should be something I am absolutely required to give up when there are other "sins" where no one bats an eye. No Christian follows EVERY word of the Bible, in fact the Bible says several times that it's impossible to do everything it says! We are saved through our faith in Jesus, not through human effort. So why do I feel like I have to be abstinent or I can't be a Christian at all? Every Christian has sins that, for one reason or another, they can't stop doing. When my decision not to do something affects someone else's ability to do it, that's no longer a sacrifice to God on my part, because I'm taking something away from someone I love. I don't feel right about that on any level.

Constance · 05-31-2005, 03:33 PM

My take on sex out side of marriage and outside of rel. is like snow white said be prepared for anything.
I was in a totally committed relationship withthe best guy in the entire world. I was told i would have a hard time getting pg right because of pcos. not that i was stupid about having sex ok i was stupid. So i was 3 months without af but no big deal as this was common. But BF was like wondering what the deal was. I told him not to worry bla bla. any how he told me to get an abortion (didnt have to) and was a complete jerk. the way he treated me showed me he was not the man for me. Horrible truths come out of those you love in times of stress. He totally broke my heart. So my take on sex is be ready for anything. Kids are very expensive, and i do believe they should be raised in a two parent home. (mainly so just the one parent does not go insane)
As for the picture you paint of the church? Jump out of that one. It is not human to never have problems!.