Paganism - Misconceptions Made Clear - Page 12

Navi · 03-29-2008, 12:08 AM

I had a friend once who tried to convince me he thought I was an Indigo...I'm not sure if I believe in all that energy stuff (no offense to anyone!) but he thought it was because my personality is strange. People always feel like there's just something not right about me...In fact, I get a lot of people asking me if I'm autistic. It's kind of funny.

I guess I fit the bill in some regards and not others, but when I can I like to be reminded that someone thought it of me. Spiritually or not, it's always nice to feel like you are who you are for a reason that can't be changed.

fury · 03-29-2008, 02:42 AM

umm ~blink~...people outright ask you if you are autistic??...don't you find that to be rude? and hey...we believe what we know to be true. Its different for everyone. No offense taken.

PollySis · 03-29-2008, 11:15 AM

Hi everyone

Yes, Fury getting pagans to agree is like herding cats!

Because we have no dogma, all we can do here is random samples of us answer any queries that pop up, and hope those who ask keep in mind that the next pagan who comes along, three seconds later, may have the opposite view! That's what's so great about us!

Also something interesting to think about, here....

What follows is for pagan eyes only as it's not intended to offend non pagans, but I need to define what I DON'T believe, to outline what I do.... Which is the intellectual process many pagans follow that gets us to the point we look for the older religions.... So spare yourself and don't read what follows if you (or your god) are easily offended!....

I'm with you on the 'An it harm none'. That is specifically wiccan, I think it's the words of Doreen Valiente. I have no problem with old fashioned British witchcraft to be honest, where curses come in as handy as fluffy spells - dark and light and all has its place. All that matters is that the intent is straight, true and powerful.

I think 'An it harm none' came from a subconscious desire in the mid 20thC, as wicca developed, to not scare christians - churches are empty now but 60 years ago, people still went- wicca was a product of its time, in other words, and has no validity in the true 'old religion' of these islands, so it's not summat I trouble myself with, whether I harm or not. That said, I never ill wish anyone - one technique is wishing them great things they've always wanted which usually takes them away and out of your path, just as effectively. But that's just my technique.

As for circles and protection, again I'm a minimalist. I have home protection and away. Home is zero - nothing can touch me here. I live in the same parish my ancestors have since records began - 16thC, so no doubt further back. The land 'knows' me. It protects me, and there's nothing in this landscape is going to harm its own. Away - is a different matter. Some places have a spirit of place/elementals call them what you will, more hostile than others.

If I'm round home, I know where the directions are - if I'm not, all I need is a compass. I don't believe in ritual tools, athames etc - again, I think the power of intent is all that matters. But I realise the props and clothes get some people in the right zone, energetically, to do what they want to do. Personally, I don't need it and I think the more experienced you get, the less you need any props at all. A friend of mine who was born into a tradition, can do spells by texting on a mobile phone. That's all she needs - or rather, she can do it without but it's a tool and she uses it.

Think another thing we have in common is we're pro-active. If I want something - I do a working (some call them 'spells'). I don't sit around bemoaning the fact it hasn't happened for me, and I don't go on my knees to any god to make it happen - so I think many pagans are much more pro-active and positive people. I don't believe in an afterlife - think it cons people and is used for social control, 'Behave now so you get a reward later' basic behaviourism, in other words. Good for dog training. Not believing in an afterlife frees you to have fun, and love life NOW - it's brief and brutal and it's all you got. Am not one for weeping and wailing or being depressed for long. That's a waste of time, as is sitting round waiting for some god to grant wishes. Grant your own!

When I wanted to conceive another baby, I got my friend to do a spell. If I want to know summat ahead of time - I get out the Tarot cards. We just get on with it, in other words. That's how I think it always was, in European cultures, until the coming of the foreign gods. We are not disenfranchised or helpless - and we don't have to beg any deity or abase ourselves. We just do it. We are not disempowered as I think people can be who follow gods who claim to have all the answers. For pagans, the answers are at our fingertips - we just have to realise that. Must admit, I'm glad I'm a pagan when I see women praying for years for this and that - I wanted a kid, my mate did a working, very soon after - a kid. It wasn't even something that crossed my mind wouldn't come to be. But this very pro-activeness is possibly what makes us appear 'different' or 'wierd'.

I'm also a feminist - 2000 years ago, where I live, women were warriors if they wanted to be, ran society if they needed to, were powerful and independent. I saw that Mel Gibson bloodfest thing the other day - Passion of the Christ - and found the female roles pretty offensive really, just a lot of standing around with quivering lips and veils looking tearful and mopping up bits of blood now and then. At precisely the same time, here - we had Boudicca! Female submissiveness is an alien thing that was imported here by the Romans and later, the influence the Middle East had on them. For me, deity can't possibly be about maleness, or all male - it's about both male and female. Male, female; light, dark; moon, sun - without both you have no balance, without both you just have death and chaos and all the war and destruction that male-oriented religions bring on people. I don't think many pagans - whatever their beliefs - would disagree with that.

For me, no words, no dogma, nothing holds sway - I could never follow any belief system that relied on books or words maybe as I got a degree in English which included several years' studying dead languages like Old English - I saw firsthand the perils of translation. So any god that wants to talk to me through dogma is not going to get very far.... Distrust of manmade constructs and 'theology' - which just leads to death and destruction if what I can see of the 'big religions' is true - is something a lotof pagans reject. Wicca is not for me, for this reason too - that it has a written tradition.

Maleness is problematic. Look at any war in history and 'god' (whoever HE and he is always male mysteriously) is, well he's on their side. He manages to be on a lot of sides, blowing a lot of people up for what are really political reasons. Yet if you query this with someone who is a devout [insert major religion here], they will use the cop out of 'mankind is evil - those are people's actions, not god's'. To me that's a cop out because he can;t be much of a powerful god if he can;t stop his followers doing wars or terrorist acts, right?

Which shows it up for what it is, no? Manmade.

I suspect another thing us very different pagans often have in common, is our distrust of leaders and a reason why so many of us do practice as solitaries. Self declared leaders of any pagan community are usually disowned by the members, sooner or later, or more likely, never 'owned' by them in the first place! We are not followers, in other words and again, most major religions require you to shut up, sit down and do as you're told - usually involve giving money to some priest or other. Buying a 'gurus' Rolls Royce - or paying a preacher's wages - has never really been part of my plan, or any pagan's I know! We tend to want to stand on our own feet, and expect others to do the same! So I think there is common ground, even though we're a diverse community.

PS: I don't buy into the indigo thing particularly but I do happen to have an autistic child who is remarkably clairvoyant when he wants to be. He will go to English Heritage sites (castles etc) and reel off what he 'sees' or senses - and when you go home and check online, he is describing something other people have reported as ghost sightings, etc. And he has done this for years before he could read, incidentally and often when we've gone somewhere on impulse with no prior warning. I've thought he should have psychic development training really as I reckon he could earn a living as a psychic! But don;t want to expose him to some of the nuts out there.

BecStan · 03-29-2008, 12:03 PM

My Path is non-Wiccan completely. I believe "to each their own."

We do not adhere to the Rede/etc. We do recognize male and female Gods, and are truly Polytheistic ("Hard-polytheist" in fact).

Side note -- the entire indigo beliefs don't really jive for me. ::: shrugs ::: But that's ok too.

BeccaUK · 03-29-2008, 12:45 PM

i have to say, my personal beliefs are...well they grow with the more i learn. i started off as wiccan, but have grown far beyond that now. i have studied other systems and have found myself integrating some of what i found, such as kabbalah (not the madonna thing, or the purely jewish thing either, more the occult (or magicians as my old teacher called it) kabbalah. i believe that if it feels right, then there is a reason for it and you should follow it.

the male/female thing....i don't just think its women who have a raw deal. i tried saying this to people on my old 'wiccan school' forum and they just didn't get it. i believe in balance. the so called 'wild feminine' is lost it is true. not many women know how to feel complete by embracing their true nature. but in my mind the 'wild masculine' is also lost. masculinity for the last (at least) millenia has become so twisted and skewed that it no longer resembles what it should be. male and female to me are just two words for different complementing energies that work together. the whole 'man protect woman' thing to me is just a load of rude words and yet another way for people to seize power over something or someone else. its when the two work together that you really get results.

it does kind of irk me when people say they are white witches because that isn't balanced. life isn't full of bunnies and puppies sometimes its harsh and unfair and it goes against human nature. i try to live my life honourably and i hate hurting people i really do, but sometimes hurt is necessary, its how we grow, and its what makes the good, well good.

i'm definately a polytheist. i believe that pretty much every deity ever worshipped is real, but i choose to follow three specific deities. well, they actually chose me, but i paid attention. i started off with my main patroness finding me, then a few years later my patron found me and then a few years ago my second female patroness made herself known. they guide me through the good and bad, they comfort me when i'm down and celebrate with me when i'm happy. i can honestly say that if it wasn't for them i wouldn't be here.

Navi · 03-29-2008, 03:33 PM

Haha, Fury, no I don't find it to be terribly rude. I just tell them I'm not as far as I know, and it usually gets left at that. I don't even notice my own behavior most of the time. Just a little self-conscious about social situations.

As for this discussion on beliefs...well, I don't really know where I stand at the moment. It's never been something that's easy for me to articulate. For the longest time I've been attempting to practice Slavianstvo (as I introduced myself on this thread) but it always seems like it sort of slips my mind, as if I don't have the time to think about it. Which then I feel incredibly guilty about because it's a somewhat weak Reconstructionist effort and I feel like if it's something I believe in, I should be doing my best to keep up and keep it going!

All I know is I believe it because it feels real and true...Sort of like I can reach out and touch it, even if logically I know all religion comes down to the same concepts. I don't know. But I guess that's all that really matters, if it feels right.

Honestly, I think the only major reason why I tend to ignore it is because there's a lot of speculation and bickering that goes on between people who are trying to figure out all the "truth" about how it used to be practiced. History is important but I've found in one particular Yahoo group that the gods get severely lost in translation while they bicker about what word meant whatever in some language or another.

BecStan · 03-30-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navi

Haha, Fury, no I don't find it to be terribly rude. I
<snip>
All I know is I believe it because it feels real and true...Sort of like I can reach out and touch it, even if logically I know all religion comes down to the same concepts. I don't know. But I guess that's all that really matters, if it feels right.

Honestly, I think the only major reason why I tend to ignore it is because there's a lot of speculation and bickering that goes on between people who are trying to figure out all the "truth" about how it used to be practiced. History is important but I've found in one particular Yahoo group that the gods get severely lost in translation while they bicker about what word meant whatever in some language or another.

I thought I'd say that ultimately there are two things which I have found personally needed in a Tradition: Truth, and "if it works for me."

Seriously! I'd much rather something be reconstructionist, or completely "made up" by someone than to have someone LIE to me about where they came from, where there information/tradition came from. You got me?

Secondly, does this tradition *work* for you? Are you spiritually fulfilled, does it answer questions for you, does it embolden you to be a better person, etc., etc. If it does these things, then it does *NOT* matter what anyone else thinks about it.

That's my honest opinion, having "been there, done that", on all sides of this argument in my 20+ years of Paganism.

silverhawk · 04-01-2008, 10:22 PM

well according to the check list, I'm indigo, but I'd never heard of it before. I had every single line fit perfectly.

I'm looking into druidry, specifically OBOD when I can afford it. Hope it will be soon.

knittygritty · 04-02-2008, 10:01 PM

I am so happy to have found this thread. I feel like something has changed within me recently that needs to be shared. I was meditating and instead of trying to wipe the slate clean by clearing myself of all thoughts (the buddhist method), I decided to focus on the energy within a stone...which soon became recognizing the energy within me. By the end of meditating I was brimming over with joy (a rarity for me). It's difficult to put words to...I felt like I was buzzing with liveliness. I have always had a very strong connection with and respect for nature. The cycles in nature have always translated to a "recycling" of life on an intellectual level, but for some reason the non-physical was never a part of this equation. I have felt disconnected from this cycle...like I wasn't good enough or something. I am beginning to realize my spiritual potential. I hope that this makes sense to someone! I am not sure where to go from here, but I have hope that it will come to me. Does anyone have any suggestions?? or any books that may provide guidance? Happy spring!

PollySis · 04-03-2008, 10:40 PM

I've done the first two levels of the OBOD course and would recommend it.

Think it's got dearer since I started, a few years back.

Yes, Knitty know what you mean - the difference between Eastern and Western (generalisation coming up!) meditation - one is about emptying your mind, or being wholly present in the now... the other takes you on adventures.

Others can probably make more useful recommendations, Knitty, but I got into Western style meditations with John and Caitlin Matthews' Hallowquest book and the accompanying tarot deck. You use the cards to meditate, and if you follow the course in the book, it takes a year but you start from the beginning with some really straightforward, down the line, Western meditation techniques. (Oddly many people report 'seeing' the same things in their early meditations ) it's more an unfolding narrative/story, that you 'enter' frame by frame and within it, various things unfold. I'm not sure if it's still in print as I got mine around 1998, I think? Anyway, you go to some pretty interesting places - well trodden paths. You can use any tarot deck you're drawn to, to meditate - concentrate on a picture, then imagine yourself stepping through the frame into it... what do you see? Where do you go? Who speaks to you? They recommend you keep a journal and you start the quest at whatever point in the year you're at....

I have learned a lot about Eastern meditation (correction - dipped my toe in the water of....) with the books of Thich Nat Hhan - especially his walking meditation book.

Like you, I prefer the Western 'busy' sort of meditation but sometimes practice the buddhist kind, too.

silverhawk · 04-04-2008, 08:39 PM

please send energy/pray for me.... I have a rant thread, but I'd like for the Pagan Cysters to be aware I'm making a 1600 mile trip in 11 days and I can use all the help I can get.

Somewhat Damaged · 04-05-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverhawk

please send energy/pray for me.... I have a rant thread, but I'd like for the Pagan Cysters to be aware I'm making a 1600 mile trip in 11 days and I can use all the help I can get.

You got it cyster

Purple_monkfish · 04-06-2008, 09:30 AM

I identify as wiccan just because it's easier. When someone asks what your faith is it's far far easier to just say "wiccan" or "neopagan" than go into great depths explaining exactly what you believe.
That said, i'm not really wiccan in the strict sense. I believe in the duality of genders, a male and a female aspect (the concept of Lord and Lady if you will) and I believe in divination and the power of the human will and spirit. I don't do much "magic" mostly because I never feel the need, I don't consider my faith as some sort of magic lamp (like a lot of teens comming into paganism) and instead really only use tarot and occassional rituals asking for protection or guidance. Candle magic is my thing, it's what feels right and i'm all for faith being entirely based not on any particular dogma but on what feels right in your heart. As a result, I tend not to follow any set rituals and I don't even really celebrate the sabats.. well.. except Yule (because it's a christian holiday to) and Halloween. I love halloween, it's my favorite time of year. I like autumn and I love the traditions associated with the night, I use it as an excuse to sit on my own for a while and meditate, to muse over all i've learned, gained and lost in the past year and give thanks. To remember. I always feel absolutely invigorated afterwards.

My partner is wonderful, he describes himself as "polytheistic agnostic", he believes there has to be more out there but refuses to believe in a single deity. His beliefs lean toward what we generally associate with pagan or wiccan beliefs.
We'll be hopefully getting married with a few subtle handfasting symbols, i've always loved the main symbolism of handfasting but because neither of us are strictly wiccan it'll be a symbol ridden but ritual for the sake of ritual free ceremony. What feels right, that's my phillosophy.

I suppose that was the appeal of the pagan faiths, the fact that there is no be all and end all about how to celebrate your faith, no dogma to be misinterpreted. As I said, I identify as closer to wicca than to agnostic because it encapsulates my ideals a little better, but as faith should be, it's impossible to put a set label on what brings you peace and comfort in your heart.

BeccaUK · 04-07-2008, 09:51 AM

i've been kinda the same for a while purple_monkfish. i haven't really been wiccan in the structest sense for a while, but its just easier.
i do what magic i need and when, which to be honest isn't much.

i know what you mean about some of the newcomers to paganism. at the site where i used to work alot of the newer pagans said they 'chose paganism because you can pick and choose what to believe'. it kind of got on my nerves a bit because i don't choose what to believe, i don't think you can choose what to believe, just what to follow. there's a big difference!

sagestory · 04-07-2008, 12:32 PM

I'm glad to see a Pagan thread here! I have seen a lot of posts and threads that are Christian, so it's nice to have a thread for us as well

So yeah.. just wanted to say 'hi'! Oh yeah... I consider myself Pagan above all, but I do currently follow a Wiccan path.