PollySis

Nurseychicky, love that!

Reminds me of this I read in one of the poet Shelley's essays, talking about the Garden of Eden:

"God, on this occasion, it is said, assigned a punishment to the Serpent that its motion should now be along the ground upon its belly. We are given to suppose that, before this misconduct, it hopped along on its tail, a mode of progression which, if I was a serpent, I should think the severer punishment of the two...."

[Percy Bysshe Shelley, 'Essay on the Devil', 1821].

In my mind, he always had legs but when I read this I reckon Shelley probably had a point!

Although famously an atheist, Shelley became a 'diest' (pantheist) later in life. His friends said one of his favourite things to read was the bible - although he read it just as you'd read any other mythology. The stuff about Prometheus may well have occured to him, too, as one of his poems is 'Prometheus Unbound' and his wife, Mary Shelley's book 'Frankenstein' is subtitled 'The Modern Prometheus' . When he died, an anoynous xian reviewer opened the obituary:

"Shelley, the writer of some infidel poetry has been drowned; now he knows whether there is a God or no."

Slightly heartless!

Nursey, I'm copying that one out to send to various pagan people... So pleased to hear that original sin had nothing to do with me! Even when I first heard that story - would have been about 5 - it struck me as strange that 'knowledge' was automatically an evil thing.

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Purple_monkfish

How nice to have a pagan page. I'm Wiccan myself...

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PollySis

Hi Monkfish! I'm in North Yorks! Congradulations on your baby! I had my last son in York District Hospital - they were lovely in there, my midwives were really caring and empowering! Are you booked in somewhere, yet, or having a home birth?

What have the pagan cysters been upto lately? Shame about the rain, innit? (Those of us in the UK I mean - the rest of you don't know how lucky you are! It's been pouring here!)

I managed to get some gardening done in the brief milli-second of sunshine yesterday and got out of doors long enough to gather some French Lavender to put in oil on a windowsill, and made my worser half some cream for his excema with Neem oil I got t'other week. This is my favourite time of year now, with everything coming into flower, and my lettuces etc in nice rows in the veggie garden, etc etc. (I say that all year round, *Oh this is my favourite time of year...* I'm sure I said it at Imbolc and Beltane...)

Anyone got any plans for Midsummer?

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silverhawk

notmuch going on here.... hot dry icky!! I miss rain.... too bad you can't send some of yours here Polly

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PollySis

Just wanted to send everyone love and light for the Summer Solstice! Anyone got any plans for your solo rites, or circles?

It's my youngest son's birthday on Monday (19th) and I always wished afterwards I'd made them wait two more days to induce him! When he was one, we took him round many of the Cornish stone circles, and pagan holy places and he was just magical - his face lit up every time he entered a circle!

I haven't decided what I'm doing for solstice, but hope it's a good one. Some years I give my older kids the day off school and go to the seaside. Maybe I'll just do a picnic this year with them, not sure. And a solo rite at night.

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jesstx

Right on, PollySis! I follow an Eclectic Celtic Pagan path. Say that three times fast.

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gothik

ooh! I'm glad this is here. I s'pose I'll chime in.

Some girlfriends introduced me to Wicca some 10 yrs ago, and it sounded kinda cool. But somewhere in the transition it took on something completely different for me. I found purpose and direction for my soul - and the freedom of searching within myself for the answers which Christianity could not provide me. I used to work with others, but for the majority of the last decade have been what some might call a solitary. I left Wicca b/c it was not open enough for me so am now and have been for several yrs an ecclectic pagan - which means that i combine elements from different practices. I pick up gods from different pantheons; celtic otherworld principles, norse virtue, pantheism, buddhism's samsara, chivalry, sumerian abyss, celestial influences, different types of magic (that focus on elements such as herbs, stones, elements in general, chaos, night energy, blood, etc.)

Ethics?
The Wiccan way prides itself on 'an ye harm none, do what ye will'. Odinism holds the nine virtues to the highest. I know that I am a virtuous soul, but not all the time. I get very overheated, with the medication I'm on, and often times have trouble keeping my hot head in check. For myself, knowing when to act is paramount. At times it is more important for me to exert much self control than to set my sights on screwing people over unless they absolutely deserve it (that's called a hex or revenge). I am not above revenge. Our rules are set by our perceptions of the distribution of order and chaos. Some people claim to have no rules... I claim to have some though i appear very loose in my ethical structure. Certain violations warrant revenge. Murder, rape, molestation.

Sexuality?
We are what we are. We might not always understand it, but its a learning experience, part and parcel to the life we live and the environment we do it in. I won't discriminate against people of other sexes, unless they've done something right terrible to me to warrant it and even then my complaint would be with their character not their sexuality.

Gay Marriage?
Marriage is the foundation of a family, and family has traditionally been defined as between man and woman, the two who beget the progeny for the world to come. Biologically it works. Hetero couples who don't wish to marry live together for years and often become common law relationships. A common law homosexual relationship i would recognize and it would be beneficial if they would receive benefits fitting for the loved ones of people who die prematurely, or other situations. However in my viewpoint, children need both masculine and feminine influences to understand the scope of both and enable them with the direction in which they choose to go. This is one woman's opinion.

Abortion?
I don't support it. I view it as killing life, b/c i believe that life begins at conception. But i don't have the right to attack someone else for choosing it as their way. Is there karma for people who have abortions? I don't know.

Euthanasia and Suicide?
We, the inheritors of the dna strands that carry the PCOS traits understand pain better than anyone, or as much as anyone. Its tough living with it day in and out - but must weigh the options. I watched my mother die of cancer and she never wanted to live by machine. I wasn't sure what to do for her so i let nature run its course - thinking it best. I still stand by that credo today. If its time to go , we go. If not we stay. In the earliest days of my PCOS i was very depressed - suicide was an option (not b/c i had PCOS but because i hated life) that never came to fruition. Do suicides feel the sting of karma? that i don't know either. I think they're good questions though.

Politics?
People who don't have a pre-established religion, but have flexibility seem the most likely candidates to also have a flexible belief system in the arena of politics. I would think that pagans would be in support of family values, national defense, borders, language, culture, etc. However there are brutal battles between the two main parties. I don't like all of any parties i've seen so far. I agree with some conservative viewpoints, some liberal viewpoints, and thusly consider myself a conservative independent.

Circle casting?
It creates a border of protection through the form of a circle of energy to protect one from any fly by maligned spirits and provides a focus for the caster. Not everyone feels the need to do it. I don't do it very often.

trying to cover all bases.. hope i have.

starrgazzer

Wow am i glad i found this thread. I am in what i would call the beginning stages of Wicca. I have been practicing for about 3 years now and I know nothing compared to you ladies. I must say though it is nice to have someone else that I can relate to. My family is christian and some catholic. I even have a couple of jewish relatives as well. So definatly when they found out about Wicca thier first reaction was. " your gonna go into witchcraft?"...of course they were under the devil worshiper-satanic ritual state of mind. I set that straight and basically illustraited the fact that is, in lamens terms a multi-divinity belief system. Different gods and goddesses make up what some pagans and wiccans worship. Though some only choose to worship one god or goddess and some none at all. I my self am more drawn to the gods and goddesses of nature (ie: trees, light, earth etc.). Well i do wish my cysters and now that i know fellow pagans/wiccans and so on happy travels and blessed be.

PollySis

Hello Starrgazzer! You inspired me to write a bit about 'liturgy', words set in stone, dogma and the whole paraphenalia of religion, which I think turns many of us into pagans in the first place.

You said:

But I think you know plenty! The beauty of all the various forms of paganism is that there is usually no liturgy, dogma, no chapter and verse - you come to it already with everything you need to know inside you... and you can be your own priesthood, if you like!

Where there are priests there can be ego - and ideas start being subject to prejudices, or set in stone, as someone sets themselves up as 'the expert'. That said, in some forms of paganism there are High Priests/Priestesses. My own Order has a Chosen Chief, but he is just that. For many druids, we believe we are the priesthood. There is an old Irish saying that wherever a druid walks is holy ground. Any druid! Those wiccans and witches who keep a Book of Shadows are often writing their own liturgy, their own prayers. There is no central font of all wisdom, either human or book you can touch. Our book is nature and our words are often our own - either spontaneously made up on the spot, or self-penned, or written by friends.

I was sitting by a ruined abbey in York, the other day. It was half demolished by Henry VIII as most of them were - to get rid of the corrupt monks and clergy - and I've often thought the ruins which are half gone back to nature have more of any God about them than the finished, perfect, supposedly awe inspiring places like York Minster, down the road, or say Westminster Abbey, Chartres, etc. High up, there were old passageways where no human feet have stood for 500 years - only the squirrels running along the broken passageways. Every single one of what must have been exquisitely crafted medieval stained glass windows now gone, just a bit of broken masonry and tracery, where they once were - which tells you more about the vanity of humanity than the finished, perfect product does. Our landscape in Britain has more of these than the rest of Europe, probably as we had the Reformation and later the English Revolution which did away with a lot of the fripperies as puritans ripped anything that looked catholic (statues, wall friezes, often stained glass windows) out of the remaining churches. It gives you a perspective on a dead/dying religion that used money and power to rule ordinary folk with fear. (Although they subverted it - every church round here has a Green Man carved somewhere or other - or 30!)

And all round, some huge old trees of various sorts. I could see what you might call 'god' for wont of a better word, instantly, in the trees and the sky and the beautiful day, and amongst the ruins. But take me to the Minster, five minutes away - I feel nothing. Nada. It's man made and even the stones have no spirit. Like many pagans, I for one don't need impressive buildings or priests setting themselves up above me, or any liturgy of any kind. I've felt a million times more power in a 3000 year old stone circle, than in any building.

I love Emma Restall-Orr's book about 'Ritual' which inspires us to create our own celebrations and rituals, in our own way and our own words. This is probably a fairly typical pagan approach to 'worship'.

Some folk outside paganism probably think that's a bit feeble or a cop out, but in a sense it's the hardest route to travel. For we have no maps! The more I learn the more I realise the less I know! Maybe we're closest to Buddhists in that way? On the other hand, I also think we already 'know' enough the day we consciously find our path. How many pagans of whatever path do you know who say they were always pagan, just didn't realise it? Most of us, probably!

I know many practising wiccans do have a liturgy in a sense - the Doreen Valiente things like the Rede which ends with the lines:

"Eight words the Witches Rede fulfill:
If it Harms none, Do what Thou Will!"

And many druids from different Orders use certain words, from time to time like the Druids' Prayer:


Or the oath of peace:



Many rituals have a set format - but the words can change. Some circles stick to their own liturgy. For many others, it's a fluid, ever changing thing.

I wonder if anyone has any favourite words from their belief system? Are you all spontaneous, or do you follow set rituals? Do you write your own prayers? And what about those pagans like many British/Irish traditional witches who don't have a religious side to their practice, at all? What do you think of the whole idea? Do those of us who are solitaries, use say Doreen Valiente's writings? Or others? Or do you use your own creativity? And where do you practice, if you do the religious side? Where is your 'church'? (Mine are the woods and fields around here where my ancestors for centuries have farmed. I also love beaches, especially Whitby and always have a word with the goddess there!)

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starrgazzer

PollySis,

In response to your post:
I just try to follow "an it harm none, do as ye shall." Though some of them may not practice this, most of our fellow practitioners are familiar with this phrase and its meaning. I try to follow set rituals. I do celebrate the different wiccan holidays. If I were getting ready for a ritual, i may set it up to go a specific systemized way but usually i just end up going where my heart draws me. I have a religious side to my practice. I am very very largely into herbs, spells and potions though. One point that I am not sure of yet is any magical powers like we see portrayed on television. I believe to an extent they are there but only very limited. As far as writings, i tend to find some from others that work for what I want and then taylor that to fit my specific situation. I practice in my bedroom for now. I have some family members that do not necessarily agree with my choices and so for now I am doing it in the privacy of my own space as to not force any of my religious choices on them...back to an it harm none do as ye shall...

PollySis

We've been a bit quiet, of late. I've been following the interesting debate on the prayer thread and it set me wondering - what do we pagans think of prayer? Do you practice it? Do you understand it in some different way to the norm, ie: is your meditation time, your prayer? If you have deities, to whom do you pray? If not - then what? Do you use tried-and-tested 'prayers', or make them up yourself? Or both?

Ooh questions, questions, questions.

I know there's some good stuff in Rae Beth's *The Hedge Witch's Way* about prayer - but I can't quite find my copy! (Will write a quick prayer to the God of Things Lost Under The Fish-Tank....)

Meantime, to inspire us, here's some words of Emma Restall-Orr's about pagan prayer and the question of do I write my own, or use existing words...

[Ritual: A Guide to Life, Love and Inspiration, Emma Restall-Orr (2000)].

So pagan cysters - what do we think about prayer? And non pagans with questions... keep asking! How would you feel about being your own priestess, writing your own liturgy?

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rainyangl

Hi there Pollysis! I thought I would chime in about prayer. Prayer to me = meditation. I meditate the most in the Fall and Winter months. I feel most connected to nature during those months. Ideally I pray outside, thinking about the things around me, what I want/need out of life and how I can throw around a bit of good karma. If I can't outside I will put on some soothing music and if I have an alter set up I will meditate there.

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Jane8660

I'm very confused, perhaps I have found the right place.

I've had a very hard time lately. I was raised Catholic, but it did not fit for me. So lately I have been 'praying' to the 'universe' asking for help & guidance.

I had some experience with 'energy work' and 'spiritual healing' that made me start & wonder about other more 'alternative' things.

Before my recent down times I was a very close minded individual. The positive of my negative experiences is that I am opening my mind.

Last week I had a dream about a pagan/wiccan shop. I have no idea about what pagan/wiccan is, although somewhat the wiser after reading your very informative thread. Today a colleague said to me, at lunchtime do you want to go to this shop.

This gave me shivers and I said no, we need to go right now. So we went with it.

We entered the shop & the woman asked what had bought us here. Apparently she sees it as very significant anyone who enters her shop on this particular day. Unbeknownst to us it is the 22nd of September and the day of a solar eclipse?

She also said, just moments before that 2 of their tarot readers had just finished with clients & normally we would need appointments but they were available (a good sales job?).

Well I was quite happy with my tarot reader. She didn't tell me what to do but encouraged me to find my own path. I was pretty closed off, but she was quite accurate in her assessments. I felt considerably better after the reading.

This reader told me I need to develop my spirituality but it was up to me how I did this. Apparently in numerology my life path number is 11. But it's up to me to seek this out.

Back down to the shop and I was advised to do a simple 'spell' of lighting candles, write down my wishes for growth (as this is because of the solar eclipse?) for internal strength, confidence, instinct, healing & to develop my psychic abilities?

Not sure if this is all a bit far fetched but I have to say I've done the spell and I feel calmer & more centred then ever before, so no harm done.

A few months back I had a dream (I posted it on here) about a monk or priest with a necklace with a pentacle symbol. He told me that I would know I was on the right path when I found this necklace.

When I re-entered the shop I noticed a pentacle drawn on the wall. It prompted me to ask if they sold necklaces with this symbol. The first one they showed me was pretty but the second one was identical to the one in the dream. So I bought it.

The woman in the shop encouraged me to go with my own instincts & follow my own path. So that is what I'm doing by posting on this thread. I feel someone on here will know what I mean? This might not be it but someone can point or guide me in the right direction.

PollySis

Sounds like you've 'come home' Jane!

I'd guess most of us, whatever our pagan path, have had that same experience of being brought slowly to the point where we realised we were 'home', that we'd found something we could believe in. For me, I had a lifelong interest in many different things that were pagan - folklore, magic, Tarot, etc but it didn't fall into place until I was older. I'd also longed to 'believe' in something but found too many holes in the arguments of mainstream religions, and found them too male-oriented, too dictatorial and sexist.

Paganism is empowering because you don't have endless strictures and rules, and the negative lists of things you can and can't do. We've just had the Equinox, and it's at times like the solstices, equinoxes, the 'old' festivals of the year, that sensitive people feel more spiritually aware, so maybe that's what brought you to the place you are, now. Dreams, or flashes of intuition seem to happen to many people.

Jane, have fun with it - learn about different paths, and see what draws you. I know I felt like I'd finally come home, when it fell into place for me. Most pagans I know say things like 'I've been a pagan all my life, but I didn't know it.' Take your time, is the best advice I'd give anyone starting out on exploring this. Explore the things that attract you, and see where it takes you!

I had 'done' bits of magic etc since I was a kid (because I grew up in a fairly rural, isolated place with a lot of 'superstitions' and traditions, and everybody did!) but it wasn't til I was drawn to Tarot that I started studying pagan paths and realised that our own native belief systems I thought had been killed stone dead by christianity, were actually still there. I started studying Tarot, being a 'hedge witch' rather than a wiccan - and later, was drawn to druidry. At the moment, I find it hard to label myself - as I'm into druidry but also old fashioned witchery, and at the same time have been studying and reading a lot of buddhist stuff as it is so close to druidry it's interesting. It's a lifelong process and the beauty of it is, it's all up to you. There's no 'chapter and verse' and you can be your own priestess, if you want! I think the Aussie wiccans have just had a big conference:

www.applegroveonline.com

The few Aussie pagans I know online are some of the nicest pagans I know!

Best direction to start is simply explore whatever you feel drawn to. Keep hold of your natural scepticism, as there are charlatans and egocentric people drawn to paganism, as to any belief system.

A beautiful tarot site is:

www.tarotpassages.com

Ah and these Aussies are my favourite writers on Reiki, ever:

www.reiki.net.au

They cut out a lot of the New Age drivel and strip Reiki back to its true Japanese roots. If you want to learn more about energy work, you've got some of the best Reiki people in the world, down there!

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georgy

great thread.

I'm Athiest maybe I should start an 'understanding Athiest/Agnostics' thread...I know that some people who have faith, just cannot understand how someone like me can get through life without it. I love reading about peoples beliefs and religious traditions. I'm not so much open minded about it, but I'm curious about what makes people tick.

Could someone tell me whether Paganism is loosely related to Native American Spirituality or other types of spiritual worship.

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